Scherzer/Zimmerman

Parade_Rain said:

Why would you trade away Edwards? Egads, man.

Click to expand...

LOL. I can give you 5 reasons why? Lester, Strasburg/Zimmerman, Arrieta, Hammel, and Hendricks. :fap::fap::fap::fap::fap:

BTW, lookout for the Cardinals to possibly land one if they go.

beckdawg said:

Irony being both have concerns. You're feelings of TJ might warrant more concern if Strasburg hadn't pitched over 500 innings the past 3 seasons at 3 ERA. Could he tear his UCL again? Sure. Could Edwards issue harm him likewise? Sure. I also feel you're drastically underselling the fact that Edwards at 23 has yet to throw a pitch above AA. Full disclosure, I actually like Edwards as a player. So this isn't a case of me throwing someone I dislike under the bus. However, you're talking about 3 years difference between the two and Strasburg has already performed at a major league level quite well.

Additionally, you're not talking about a case like Shark where you're trading for a 29 year old pitcher. You're talking about a 26 year old who while you will have to extend him likely for large money will still be pitching over his prime years for that contract. As a corollary compare him to signing David Price as a FA next year. Price will be 30 years 7 months to start 2016. If we use Lester's contract as a guide would you rather pay Price 6 years $155 mil for 31-ish through 37-ish or would you rather pay Strasburg the same for 28ish through 34-ish?

So, I really fail to see why Edwards is untouchable in your mind. Strasburg if healthy still accomplishes the same goal of being productive on a similar timeline to the cubs hitting prospects. The one difference here being that he's already proven to be a high caliber starter at the major league level. If the cubs could get away with swapping him and Johnson then fine I'd do that. But most of the scouting reports I've read on him think even if he does stick as a starter he's at best a 3 maybe a low end 2.

Click to expand...

I could post a book on your first several paragraphs, but I believe in the KISS principle. In regards to the bolded, I've already explained it to you. The Cubs need more pitching in MiLB. They will want waves, just like the position player prospects. They aren't going to be trading pitching away---at least those as promising as Edwards. It's that simple. If you want to trade for Strasburg find some position players.

Boobaby1 said:

LOL. I can give you 5 reasons why? Lester, Strasburg/Zimmerman, Arrieta, Hammel, and Hendricks. :fap::fap::fap::fap::fap:

BTW, lookout for the Cardinals to possibly land one if they go.

Click to expand...

Teams shouldn't even trade with the Cards. They should just tell em' to fuck off when they call about potential deals.

JimJohnson said:

LOL dude, Zimm's birthday is May and Stras is July. Zimm is 2 years and 2 months older than Strasburg. Come on bro, stop trying to play it off like its 3 years, LMAO.

Click to expand...

I wasn't. I was clarifying why I used the numbers I did. As for the rest of your comments, of course a power curve is a generalization. If people knew the future there would be no debate here. The point here is Zimmerman almost assuredly is at the peak and you would expect his best years to be the next 2-3 with a marginal decline year to year after. With Strasburg or any other 26 year old pitcher you would expect him to get marginally better the next several years before peaking and doing like wise. How much better Strasburg gets isn't really my point. My point is the rest of the team probably starts to peak after 2-3 years.

I feel that you're drastically underselling what Strasburg has done at 25. At 23, he had a 4.1 fWAR season the year after returning from TJ surgery. Last season at 24 he had a 3.3 fWAR season and this past season at 25 he had 4.3 fWAR. As a comparison, Zimmerman the past 4 seasons at 25-28 has had 3.2, 3.4, 3.6, and 5.2.

As for big money comments, you realize Zimmerman is going for the same big money right? And I'd also point you to this.

Parade_Rain said:

I could post a book on your first several paragraphs, but I believe in the KISS principle. In regards to the bolded, I've already explained it to you. The Cubs need more pitching in MiLB. They will want waves, just like the position player prospects. They aren't going to be trading pitching away---at least those as promising as Edwards. It's that simple. If you want to trade for Strasburg find some position players.

Click to expand...

Aren't some of their better pitching prospects in A-ball like Torres, Tseng, Underwood and such. Kane County had a pretty phenominal year in the pitching department. Couple that with what they can bring in in the draft, and guys like Johnson, Black, Blackburn and others who may be able to settle in some day.

Right now, they are top heavy in hitting prospects so that is why they purchased the pitching. It will all average out in the end, but this buys them time to develop their own, and also dive back into the IFA market after June.

If I can get a proven TOR versus one that might get there, I will take the proven one especially since he is still young. Just my opinion.

JimJohnson said:

Teams shouldn't even trade with the Cards. They should just tell em' to fuck off when they call about potential deals.

Click to expand...

They will need to start looking for pitching soon to go along with Wainright.

Though they are still good, there is something that screams that the Cardinals pitching isn't quite what it used to be when Carpenter and Wainright headed the campaign.

Now it's Wainright who is starting to have issues, and then question marks as TOR pitching in Lynn, Wacha, Gonzales, Garcia, and Martinez.

What two are going to carry the torch from here on out for them?

Strasburg is a mental midget. He doesnt have the confidence or swag of other pitchers. He gets down and will implode that way. I truly question his mental toughness. I would love either one of them, but I have concerns over Strasburg. I wouldnt give the world for him.

Parade_Rain said:

I could post a book on your first several paragraphs, but I believe in the KISS principle. In regards to the bolded, I've already explained it to you. The Cubs need more pitching in MiLB. They will want waves, just like the position player prospects. They aren't going to be trading pitching away---at least those as promising as Edwards. It's that simple. If you want to trade for Strasburg find some position players.

Click to expand...

You've still yet to explain how Strasburg is some how more risky than Edwards is though which is my point. I'm not just saying that because Edwards is thin build though obviously scouts think that is a concern. I'm saying that because he's a pitcher. Any pitcher is a concern to have elbow trouble. There's no conclusive evidence to support the fact that one TJ leads to another. In fact there's a number of cases like Chris Carpenter and incidentally Jordan Zimmerman of pitchers having it and going on to pitch well for several years with few concerns. If we were talking about this trade in say 2012 I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But Strasburg has thrown over 550 IP with seemingly no issues as far as we know. At what point does it stop being a concern?

As for the concept of waves, I understand what you're suggesting but my point would be you're talking about trading a 23 year of for a 26 year old. It's not as though you're trading a 23 year old for a 32 year old. Strasburg's prime years shouldn't be that far off Edwards. Again, if this was David Price we were talking about who's several years old than Strasburg I think you make a fine point. And additionally, we already know what Strasburg is as a pitcher. The same can't be said for Edwards. He might never make it out of the minors. So, that knowledge of what Strasburg is has value.

Again, I have no problem trading hitting prospects instead as you suggest. I just don't think that's very realistic. To get either Zimmerman or Strasburg you're going to need one headline piece similar to what Russell was in the Shark trade. So that's probably Baez/Russell given the need for SS with WAS. You then need a compelling second piece. I seriously doubt the cubs want to trade Schwarber at this point and I think he and anyone above him is likely giving up too much as a second piece. You then get into the Almora, Edwards, Johnson, and McKinney range. Given that they already have Harper and one of their top prospects is a CF that limits you're choices.

Boobaby1 said:

Aren't some of their better pitching prospects in A-ball like Torres, Tseng, Underwood and such. Kane County had a pretty phenominal year in the pitching department. Couple that with what they can bring in in the draft, and guys like Johnson, Black, Blackburn and others who may be able to settle in some day.

Right now, they are top heavy in hitting prospects so that is why they purchased the pitching. It will all average out in the end, but this buys them time to develop their own, and also dive back into the IFA market after June.

If I can get a proven TOR versus one that might get there, I will take the proven one especially since he is still young. Just my opinion.

Click to expand...

I'm not taking one who is Arb eligible in 2016 and Boras is his agent. No one knows if the Cubs bats are even ready to compete and some of you are ready to trade away a promising young arm that doesn't cost anything for 2 years, maybe three tops. I wouldn't do that for Strasburg.

beckdawg said:

Again, I have no problem trading hitting prospects instead as you suggest. I just don't think that's very realistic. To get either Zimmerman or Strasburg you're going to need one headline piece similar to what Russell was in the Shark trade. So that's probably Baez/Russell given the need for SS with WAS. You then need a compelling second piece. I seriously doubt the cubs want to trade Schwarber at this point and I think he and anyone above him is likely giving up too much as a second piece. You then get into the Almora, Edwards, Johnson, and McKinney range. Given that they already have Harper and one of their top prospects is a CF that limits you're choices.

Click to expand...

You must have missed my post where I said the Cubs could give them Castro to help fill their SS need.

JimJohnson said:

You must have missed my post where I said the Cubs could give them Castro to help fill their SS need.

Click to expand...

The Cubs aren't trading Castro. They won't be making these moves when they still really don't know what they have regarding all the prospects. Does Alcantara come back better? Is Baez less of a K king? Will Bryant handle 3B? How will Russell handle AAA, etc. Too many questions to be making trade moves for a "now" playoff run.

SilenceS said:

Strasburg is a mental midget. He doesnt have the confidence or swag of other pitchers. He gets down and will implode that way. I truly question his mental toughness. I would love either one of them, but I have concerns over Strasburg. I wouldnt give the world for him.

Click to expand...

Can you elaborate on this a bit? You know i'm not a scouty type and rely more on numbers. I don't get to see many washington games but the numbers don't really suggest this. His high leverage numbers aren't really any different than his low leverage numbers(2.86/2.66 FIP/xFIP vs 2.61/2.50). Not trying to start a fight here or anything but it honestly seems like this is anecdotal. You have similar numbers if you compare men on base/scoring. Additionally, in the past 3 year's he's only had 9 games where he gave up more than 5 earned. As a comparison, Kershaw has 5 over the past 3 seasons. The numbers don't really show someone who gets behind and unravels.

That being said, I wouldn't give up the world for any pitcher really. Too much risk. But if you're talking a Baez and Almora/Mckinney/Johnson/Edwards plus two filler pieces type trade I think he's well worth that.

Parade_Rain said:

I'm not taking one who is Arb eligible in 2016 and Boras is his agent. No one knows if the Cubs bats are even ready to compete and some of you are ready to trade away a promising young arm that doesn't cost anything for 2 years, maybe three tops. I wouldn't do that for Strasburg.

Click to expand...

You can't really be scared of the boogie man. If you buy into that then Bryant's a no go, Jake Arrieta and Almora as well. Additionally, you don't make a trade for Zimmerman or Strasburg without the ground work for a contract extension in place so he's kind of moot to begin with.

JimJohnson said:

You must have missed my post where I said the Cubs could give them Castro to help fill their SS need.

Click to expand...

Wasn't really directing that comment toward you. But as others have said I seriously doubt the cubs are trading Castro. I'm not as high on Castro as some here. I'd say i was fairly level headed saying he's good but not great. That being said, I think he's basically a lock for 3-4 WAR a season and while Baez and Russell(wouldn't trade him personally) have higher upsides you almost always should take the known over the unknown.

Additionally, Castro and Rizzo are basically the two lone long timers on the team going forward. The club has made it obvious they want vet leadership and trading away castro creates a void there. Just seems highly unlikely to me.

beckdawg said:

You can't really be scared of the boogie man. If you buy into that then Bryant's a no go, Jake Arrieta and Almora as well. Additionally, you don't make a trade for Zimmerman or Strasburg without the ground work for a contract extension in place so he's kind of moot to begin with.

Click to expand...

Strasburg is going to get a bigger contract than Zimm. Bryant is irrelevant to the discussion b/c Cubs will have him for a good period of time before even having to worry about locking him up long-term.

beckdawg said:

Wasn't really directing that comment toward you. But as others have said I seriously doubt the cubs are trading Castro. I'm not as high on Castro as some here. I'd say i was fairly level headed saying he's good but not great. That being said, I think he's basically a lock for 3-4 WAR a season and while Baez and Russell(wouldn't trade him personally) have higher upsides you almost always should take the known over the unknown.

Additionally, Castro and Rizzo are basically the two lone long timers on the team going forward. The club has made it obvious they want vet leadership and trading away castro creates a void there. Just seems highly unlikely to me.

Click to expand...

I would much rather take my chances with Russell and trade away Castro while you can get something significant for him. The Cubs team now has plenty of vet leadership. Lester, Hammel, Arrieta, Rizzo, Ross, Montero. Plus Castro really isn't providing any kind of leadership other than showing the young kids its cool to hang out in clubs where people get shot.

JimJohnson said:

I would much rather take my chances with Russell and trade away Castro while you can get something significant for him. The Cubs team now has plenty of vet leadership. Lester, Hammel, Arrieta, Rizzo, Ross, Montero. Plus Castro really isn't providing any kind of leadership other than showing the young kids its cool to hang out in clubs where people get shot.

Click to expand...

:cubspalm:

Scherzer and the Natinals have agreed on a 7 year deal although the $$$ details aren't known yet

JimJohnson said:

I would much rather take my chances with Russell and trade away Castro while you can get something significant for him. The Cubs team now has plenty of vet leadership. Lester, Hammel, Arrieta, Rizzo, Ross, Montero. Plus Castro really isn't providing any kind of leadership other than showing the young kids its cool to hang out in clubs where people get shot.

Click to expand...

proven SS that has a good BA and decent OBP vs an unknown. I sure hope theo is reading your posts.


Sent from My Iphone 6 Plus Using Tapatalk

SilenceS said:

:cubspalm:

Click to expand...

DewsSox79 said:

proven SS that has a good BA and decent OBP vs an unknown. I sure hope theo is reading your posts.


Sent from My Iphone 6 Plus Using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Zimmerman & Russell >>>>>>>> Castro & Russell. Anyone who doesn't think so is a dumbass.