Venting on line-ups

Raskolnikov

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Tired of the uncreative mashing of incompatible players together.

Rose-Butler-Gibson-Gasol-Noah imo are the best 5 players, followed by Dunleavy, Mirotic (and rising), Brooks, captain Kirk, McDermot, Snell

my opinion. But they need to be patched together, that isn't a starting 5, and Gasol and Noah imo have not shown they are tremendously effective together and both need to be preserved and rested.

Rose-Butler-Dunleavy-Gibson-Noah should be our starters, they have familiarity and diverse skills, with Gasol leading the bench mob.

Rose-Brooks-Butler-Mirotic-Gasol warrants a hard look situationally and I would like to see how Mirotic and Gasol can utilize each other more often.

Rose-Butler-Mirotic-Gibson-Noah as has been brought up has some interesting statistical nuance.

when we rest Rose-Butler

Rose-Henrich-Dunleavy-Mirotic-Gasol

Brooks-Butler-Mirotic-Gibson-Noah are two lineups I don't see happening. Or try flipping the guards. I see a stagnant team on offense often and I don't know why. These pieces need to be blended better whatever the solution, we need to find combinations that are expected by the players and where they can start to define rolls instead of taking turns in iso.

I wanted to vent about the offense before the Spurs/Mavs games, because Thibs solution is dumb, "guys need to shoot if their open"...he keeps repeating it. We aren't creating easy buckets though, its stupid just to be a shot jacking team and not run offense when you have the players we have who create mismatch problems literally everywhere at once. I'm highly concerned we are not schematically advanced enough on offfense to win an NBA championship, I don't know who is running the offense, but during that bad stretch it was one of the silliest looking offenses in the NBA. Our guys are good enough to win anyway when they hit shots, but with Thibs defense and this many current and former all-stars its unacceptable to look clueless running an offense.

What needs to change? Who is to blame? And may it be necessary to give Mark Jackson a couple years with Rose and see if he can develop him the way he developed Curry?

I have loved Thibs, but his voice seems to be getting monotone and may not be the right one for this offensive group. Mark Jackson or Van Gundy would be legitimate options if all Thibs can say is "open guy has to shoot." Come on man....thats it? Open guy has to shoot?
 

Axl Rose

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i'll pass on Mark Jackson

his offense isn't any better than thibs
 

czman

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The biggest two problem with the offense right now is Butler playing 40+ minutes and Gasol down low with Noah at the high post.

Butler is killing the flow. Just watch a game and you will see the following. The offense will be moving the ball, it will go to Butler on the wing and he won't shoot the open shot. He won't rotate the ball quickly. The defense won't close out hard. Butler will just wait for a pick. It will reset the entire defense. The defense will go from on the move to set again.

Shooting and missing or just driving are both better than allowing the defense to reset. He has done this far to often recently. He just needs to let it fly.

I still think Butler needs his minutes cut and his role in the offense reduced.

Noah is in the same boat. The ball rotates to him up high. He does not shoot and he does pass. He looks for those back cuts that people are far to aware of and the defense resets. Gasol is much better jump shooter and needs to play the high post. Noah should just focus on the boards and garbage baskets.

Thibs needs to scrap that crap that made them one of the worst offensive teams last season and get Noah to do what is best for the team. The Bulls have to much talent to run their offense through Noah at the high post. Gasol is one of th3e best jump shooting bigs in the game and Noah is just bad this season.
 

ChiSoxCity

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One problem with the starting rotation is Noah. He is not producing on either side of the court, and having him paired with Gasol makes for a very weak front court defensively. Please don't bother with the defensive player of the year/ heart and soul bs. He's not performing up to standard and needs his minutes cut, or just move him to the bench.

Why is Noah handling the damn ball at the top of the key so much? They have two guards and Gasol on the floor who are capable of passing or actually hitting a shot from that distance. Noah needs to get his ass in the paint and fight for offensive rebounds. Bulls are getting killed on offensive rebounding.

Thibs should consider giving Mirotic minutes with the starters at SF, and moving Butler back to his natural position at SG.

Lastly, the Bulls play lousy as shit at home. Poor rebounding, poor shooting and careless turnovers by their bigs are killing them. The lack of motivation and game planning reflects poorly on Thibs. When guys like Noah or Snell play like shit, he needs to make smarter adjustments; that's HIS job. Use Kirk as your backup SG, with Butler starting and keep Snell on the damn bench. I don't care about his defense, he's a horrible SG.


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houheffna

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Lol at some of this stuff.

Gasol is NOT coming off the bench, his role was preordained prior to his signing, plus he's an allstar....and you don't reduce the role of an offensive player who is THE LEADING SCORER ON THE DAMN TEAM!
 

Bear Pride

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Tired of the uncreative mashing of incompatible players together.

What needs to change?

The first thing that needs to change, imo, is the silly notion that 'effort' is like a freakin light switch. You cannot turn 'effort' on & off! This does not mean that the players don't need to come with maximum effort every game.

We all know that the NBA season is a grind. We all know that back to back's are brutal. Every team has down games and stretches. The Bulls are no different. The difference is that when the players have little or no energy, or effort, it's the job of the coach to make adjustments. Especially when the coach is famous for playing his players A LOT of minutes.

It's ridiculous for Thib's to stick with a lineup that is not getting the job done, and expect that same lineup to miraculously turn up the 'effort' for the win. It's Thib's responsibility to get other players in the lineup that can spark the Bulls play. Period!!!

The 2nd thing that needs to change is the freakin Love affair for Kirk Hinrich. I Love Kirk, but he is hurting the team in the role that Thib's uses him in. It's not Kirk's fault, It's Thib's fault! Kirk needs to be demoted to 3rd string PG/SG at this point. Period!!!

The 3rd thing that needs to change is to implement some creativity with some different lineups. This means creating advantages with different matchups as well as regular substitutions to keep the team fresh. Thib's seems to think he can close out EVERY game with the same lineup. You can't.

The Bulls have enough good players that he can close the game with the hot players, not his favorite 'defensive' players. Thib's does dumb things like hold Niko until the 2nd and not play him at all in the 1st. He does this a lot. A coach can't do the same thing for every opponent.

He should be substituting players every 5+/- minutes. This will get all the players involved in the game as well as keep them fresh. This will also allow the players to play with maximum 'effort' as they can play in bursts. He also needs to learn how to call a time out and kill the opponent's momentum, and make substituions.

These are my 3 general things that need to be changed. I'll discuss different lineups moving forward.
 

knoxville7

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One problem with the starting rotation is Noah. He is not producing on either side of the court, and having him paired with Gasol makes for a very weak front court defensively. Please don't bother with the defensive player of the year/ heart and soul bs. He's not performing up to standard and needs his minutes cut, or just move him to the bench.

Why is Noah handling the damn ball at the top of the key so much? They have two guards and Gasol on the floor who are capable of passing or actually hitting a shot from that distance. Noah needs to get his ass in the paint and fight for offensive rebounds. Bulls are getting killed on offensive rebounding.

Thibs should consider giving Mirotic minutes with the starters at SF, and moving Butler back to his natural position at SG.

Lastly, the Bulls play lousy as shit at home. Poor rebounding, poor shooting and careless turnovers by their bigs are killing them. The lack of motivation and game planning reflects poorly on Thibs. When guys like Noah or Snell play like shit, he needs to make smarter adjustments; that's HIS job. Use Kirk as your backup SG, with Butler starting and keep Snell on the damn bench. I don't care about his defense, he's a horrible SG.


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you do realize Noah last year was the first center in around 40 years to average over 5 assists a game right? noah just needs to get healthy, that is all. and you want mirotic at the 3? you realize teams attack him when he is on the defensive end already right? put him at the 3 and youre just making mirotic's defensive life that much more difficult. how bout you let him figure out how to guard his natural position, the 4, before you go and have him guard 3's
 

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Health is a big issue all across the board for this team. Who knows how they will play when healthy, or if there is a such thing as everyone being healthy at the same time.
 

knoxville7

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Health is a big issue all across the board for this team. Who knows how they will play when healthy, or if there is a such thing as everyone being healthy at the same time.

yep, its been the same thing every year for the last 4 or 5 years. can they all get reasonably healthy for a playoff run? if they were to enter the playoffs that way, then theyd have as good of a shot as anyone this year IMO...but it does seem somewhat doubtful that they will be fully healthy
 

Axl Rose

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Lol at some of this stuff.

Gasol is NOT coming off the bench, his role was preordained prior to his signing, plus he's an allstar....and you don't reduce the role of an offensive player who is THE LEADING SCORER ON THE DAMN TEAM!

Jimmy is the leading scorer...at this moment anyway

but i digress
 

ChiSoxCity

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you do realize Noah last year was the first center in around 40 years to average over 5 assists a game right? noah just needs to get healthy, that is all. and you want mirotic at the 3? you realize teams attack him when he is on the defensive end already right? put him at the 3 and youre just making mirotic's defensive life that much more difficult. how bout you let him figure out how to guard his natural position, the 4, before you go and have him guard 3's

Was I not clear about Noah? He hasn't played well since the playoff series last year, so last year doesn't mean shit. That's history, time to focus ln the present. He's been awful for whatever reason, and the Bulls need less of him and Gasol getting murdered in the paint and no one fighting on the offensive glass. Assists from Noah don't mean shit right now. It looks cool to fans, but I'll take my assists from Rose, Brooks and Gasol who is actually a scoring threat from the outside. Let Noah grab some rebounds and play some damn defense for a change. He can still pass from the post.


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Axl Rose

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That was who I was talking about. Someone wanted his role offensively to be less than it is now.

oh ok my bad

i didn't even read czmans post so i thought you were still talking about Gasol
 

czman

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oh ok my bad

i didn't even read czmans post so i thought you were still talking about Gasol

I have him blocked so I had to check what he typed. Just another reason to keep him blocked though.

So let's look at Jimmy Butler:
NOV: 22PPG 50% FG 9FTAPG
DEC: 21.5 PPG 47% FG 7.5FTAPG
JAN: 16.5 PPG 40% FG 5.5 FTAPG
Last 10 games: 15PPG 38%FG 4.5 FTAPG

That is a trend. That is a trend that is going the wrong way. At this point should be clear to anyone and everyone that BUtler cannot play 40 minutes per game and be an effective and efficient scorer.

At some point we just kind of have to just see things for what they are. Butler with few minutes and less of a role probably give you the same 16PPG, but he probably shoots a much higher % and is far more efficient.

Additionally, the Bulls have a very efficient and highly duplicated offensive set to run. Gasol is shooting 50% in midrange jump shots (that is very high, Gibson is sub 40% this season) and the pick and pop jump shot is one of the easiest things to get in the NBA.

BY reducing Butler's role and allowing Gasol do something he is one the best in the league at the Bulls can improve their efficiency in two areas and the overall success of the team.

Anyone who is advocating Bulter at 40 minutes a game and large continued large offensive role moving forward and into the playoffs, is basically asking for the Bulls to lose fail.
 

RC_Skinny22

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I´m not sure it´s about minutes played that Jimmy is scoring less and has a lower FG %.

Maybe it´s just the fact that other teams are game planing for him more now. That´s something you have to figure out as a Player and that can take some time.

And btw I don´t see that Jimmy slows our offense. That´s just wrong.
If someone is playing slow, it´s Gasol. When he get´s the ball in the post he Needs like 10 seconds before he even starts to move.

Niko, I don´t want to see him at SF that much to be honest. He should be allowed to do what he does best and that ist stretching the floor.
 

Axl Rose

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If someone is playing slow, it´s Gasol. When he get´s the ball in the post he Needs like 10 seconds before he even starts to move.

this drives me crazy

it stagnates the offense....he needs to make a move allot quicker because most the time when he holds the ball like that it turns into a turnover anyway

we need to do more pick and pop with Rose/Gasol that has been a deadly 1-2 punch when done
 

houheffna

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Anyone who is advocating Bulter at 40 minutes a game and large continued large offensive role moving forward and into the playoffs, is basically asking for the Bulls to lose fail.


This is you...once again...writing a long-winded thesis proving to everybody what a dumbass you are. Lessening the minutes is one thing...lessening his role offensively is another thing entirely. Two different arguments. Whatever changes are made to his minutes, it won't be so significant that his role on the offensive side of the ball would change. Now that his abilities are proven...trying to minimize him to role player status is silly.

He has to play better...and smarter. Period. The only "lose fail" in this conversation is your argument.
 

ChiSoxCity

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Gasol's offense has carried this team. He's the most consistent scorer on the team.


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czman

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this drives me crazy

it stagnates the offense....he needs to make a move allot quicker because most the time when he holds the ball like that it turns into a turnover anyway

we need to do more pick and pop with Rose/Gasol that has been a deadly 1-2 punch when done

You do realize that is not analogist at all. When you catch the ball on the perimeter with the defense rotating you have to move quickly to capitalize. When the Ball goes into the post, if you go quickly you can miss the pass out of a double team and go right into a turn over. There is a reason why almost everyone who posts in basketball wait before they start on post moves.
 

czman

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This is you...once again...writing a long-winded thesis proving to everybody what a dumbass you are. Lessening the minutes is one thing...lessening his role offensively is another thing entirely. Two different arguments. Whatever changes are made to his minutes, it won't be so significant that his role on the offensive side of the ball would change. Now that his abilities are proven...trying to minimize him to role player status is silly.

He has to play better...and smarter. Period. The only "lose fail" in this conversation is your argument.

So playing few minutes and taking fewer shoots is not lessening his role. I guess what I should do is just post without evidence or thought. I can be just like you. Just type what unsubstantiated crap that comes to my head. Why even think or use reason at all.
 

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