ChiSoxCity
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You are in deep mancrush with Gordy. You should send him some flowers next week.
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You are in deep mancrush with Gordy. You should send him some flowers next week.
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brett05
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You should try objectivity
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So here's what I've got so far!
You are a whole lot of self righteous.
Your friends might like you, but your shaky Sox support make you the kind of fan that Reinsdorf hates.
A significant amount of Cub fans don't know the game because they disagree with you.
As Brett said, get off your high horse.
ChiSoxCity
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Cubs fans are epically myopic about that organization, don't waste your breath.
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The Hawk
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Lord, please stop with the Beckham GG nonsense.
You sound like fucking Hawk. (not the poster :lol
You sound like fucking Hawk. (not the poster :lol
brett05
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Capt....try looking at facts and keep your trash to yourself. You have no excuse to be like this...NONE
The Hawk
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Objectivity? Beckham is nowhere near a golden glove player. Not even close. He makes routine plays but does not have great range. He is especially limited going to his right and making plays. Good 2nd base arm and that is it. He sure as hell will be a below average utility infielder. NO speed. low BA and OBP. Big Hair though if any of his teammates need a transplant.
The Hawk
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Are you talking in tongues? What in the hell is happening here. What "trash" is anyone talking? Is there something being discussed somewhere else on this board?
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i wish we took a flyer on rickie weeks
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Beckham: Career -10 DRS at second.
That is below average.
That is below average.
brett05
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Clearly you have no idea what a utility player is.
brett05
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And yet he's had GG caliber years.
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Trash? Uncalled for.
brett05
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Not based on how you posted
The Hawk
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I thought that I had sent this before but I guess I didn't. I ran into this last week while taking a look at Beckham's defensive stats and ratings. This article is pretty right on what I see in the guy. I think Beckham's defensive "abilities" get over-rated partly because his offense is so bad. I think that happens because some people wanted him to be a star or something and refuse to believe that he is as bad as he is. As in like: "well he can't hit for average but once in a while he'll get a big hit for you." or " Well he can't hit but man is he good on defense.
This doesn't even touch the other stuff being talked about the guy as in "well, he will be a fine utility player for the Sox"? That also is ridiculous. Utility player? Where? The guy is a 2nd baseman. Just throwing a guy out at another position, doesn't mean he can play it worth a crap. And........ "utility" guys are supposed to have little ball skills as in ; laying a bunt down, stealing a base, drawing a throw, shit like that. Beckham? Come-on!!!
Gordon Beckham and Defense: Who to Believe?
By Kevin Kaufmann, June 7, 2014 at 11:43 am
Gordon Beckham and Defense: Who to Believe?
I don't think of myself as a particularly strong sabermetric guy, but I also don't write off numbers simply because I'm not familiar with them or I don't quite understand them. Similarly, I wouldn't say I'm a devotee to traditional notions about baseball either. Too often that line of thinking relies on outdated and often wrong methods of analysis. The traditionalist also tend to devolve down to the "You never played" or "You haven't covered" the game line of reasoning which is just worthless. Of course the number guys also can come from a very high, albeit different, high horse, the "we figured out these numbers and you can't question math" horse. They get really bitchy when you say their explanations are lacking and usually dismiss me by calling me stupid or some such thing.
Which leads us to Gordon Beckham, specifically his defensive skills. Thankfully we don't need to discuss his batting skills much anymore. Anyway, the radio and TV guys, in-studio guys and other gabbers and writers all comment that Beckham is a superior fielder, a should be gold glover. I really got thinking about this after Chuck Garfien tweeted "Gordon Beckham = Gold Glover." Thinking led to writing and here we are. Is Gordon Beckham a good, nee, great fielder?
Comparing Beckham to the Gold Glove winners in the years he has been a second baseman, the answer to the great fielder question is no. Since Gold Glove is a bit of an older, traditional award (not to mention biased toward better offensive players) I just compared Beckham's counting/traditional stats to the winner in each year.
2010
Beckham PO: 245 A: 375 DP: 100 E: 12 Fielding %: .981 (games at second 126)
Robinson Cano PO: 341 A: 432 DP: 114 E: 3 Fielding %: .996 (games 158)
2011
Beckham PO 272 A: 443 DP: 84 E: 8 Fielding %: .989
Pedroia: PO 290 A: 425 DP 81 E: 7 Fielding %: .990
2012
Beckham: PO: 280 A: 411 DP: 110 E: 7 Fielding %: .990
Cano: PO: 285 A: 435 DP: 92 E: 6 Fielding %: .992
2013
Beckham PO: 212 A: 255 DP: 69 E: 12 Fielding %: .975
Pedroia: PO: 254 A: 429 DP: 102 E: 5 Fielding %: .993
Looking at these numbers, Beckham is pretty comparable in 2011 and 2012 but not so much in 2010 or 2013. Interestingly he played his fewest games in 2010 and 2013, yet had his highest totals in errors which adversely affected his fielding percentage. Having said that, I don't think, at least in relation to the winners of each respective year, that one could say Beckham was slighted by not winning the award. In no season that he has been at second base has Beckham been better than the recipient of the Gold Glove. It's been close for sure, but no injustice.
Other statistics tell a different story. The first is the Fielding Bible Awards, voted on annually by a bunch of Bill James's buddies. Before you go all nerdaphobic, well sure some of the guys are saberheads (Bill James, Brian Kenny, Dave Cameron), but not all of them. The panel also consists of folks like Doug Glanville and Peter Gammons. In 2010, Beckham didn't receive any votes from the panel and had his lowest runs saved, -4. In 2011 Beckham was ranked 9th for the Fielding Bible and 10th in runs saved; 2012, Beckham missed the top 10 in MLB by one vote. He also didn't crack the top 10 in runs saved. In 2013, Beckham only received 5 votes for the Fielding Bible Award, putting him well behind the leaders. As far as runs saved, he scored his second lowest total -3. So with the a second body of evidence, (and we could dig deeper into the Bill James Handbook, but I won't) the results a about the same, if not a little bleaker for Beckham. If I had to place a value on Beckham from what the Fielding Bible folks say, it would be he's ok. Not an elite and is capable of actually hurting the team, albeit only slightly with his fielding.
The last place to look is in the more other metrics. According to Baseball-Reference and Baseball Info Solutions, Beckham's career Total Runs Above Average is -3. His best year was 2011 when he posted a 4, Pedroia that year had a 9. In his other years at second base he either posted a 0 or a negative number.
The other measure from Saberland is UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating) from Fangraphs, who also use Baseball Info Solutions data. I found this from the glossary very helpful. My research-oriented brain wants to understand more, but I'm not ready for that rabbit hole just yet. If you look at that definition, UZR isn't particularly difficult to understand. It is just another counting stat, just a really big one. It also involves averages, but I'm pretty sure that is sixth grade math, so I'm good. When we start talking linear weights and such my math phobia starts to kick in, damn Sister Mary Monica and her algebra overhead transparencies.
Back to Gordon: According to the glossary entry, UZR breaks down like this: Gold Glover: 15+, Great: +10, Above Average: +5, Average: 0, Below Average: -5, Poor: -10, Awful: -15. Beckham finds himself slightly above average for his career with a 3.7 UZR and a .7 for UZR/150. For a little context, Beckham's best defensive year 2011 he had a 2.8 UZR and 2.7 UZR/150. The Gold Glove winner that year Dustin Pedroia? 18.1 UZR 19.6 UZR/150.
So, where does that leave us? Does Chuck Garfien's tweet, "Gordon Beckham = Gold Glove" ring true? Not really. Beckham is an average second basemen, has some years better than others, which is the definition of average. I think it allows for a certain amount of subjectivity which I think is inherent in defensive assessment. In better years, Beckham has been recognized with some votes for the Fielding Bible Awards and conversely not so much when he's been below average. Beckham isn't a liability, but he isn't the rock that some people portray him as either. His defensive play isn't enough to keep Micah Johnson from taking his place and he hasn't earned a gold glove.
This doesn't even touch the other stuff being talked about the guy as in "well, he will be a fine utility player for the Sox"? That also is ridiculous. Utility player? Where? The guy is a 2nd baseman. Just throwing a guy out at another position, doesn't mean he can play it worth a crap. And........ "utility" guys are supposed to have little ball skills as in ; laying a bunt down, stealing a base, drawing a throw, shit like that. Beckham? Come-on!!!
Gordon Beckham and Defense: Who to Believe?
By Kevin Kaufmann, June 7, 2014 at 11:43 am
Gordon Beckham and Defense: Who to Believe?
I don't think of myself as a particularly strong sabermetric guy, but I also don't write off numbers simply because I'm not familiar with them or I don't quite understand them. Similarly, I wouldn't say I'm a devotee to traditional notions about baseball either. Too often that line of thinking relies on outdated and often wrong methods of analysis. The traditionalist also tend to devolve down to the "You never played" or "You haven't covered" the game line of reasoning which is just worthless. Of course the number guys also can come from a very high, albeit different, high horse, the "we figured out these numbers and you can't question math" horse. They get really bitchy when you say their explanations are lacking and usually dismiss me by calling me stupid or some such thing.
Which leads us to Gordon Beckham, specifically his defensive skills. Thankfully we don't need to discuss his batting skills much anymore. Anyway, the radio and TV guys, in-studio guys and other gabbers and writers all comment that Beckham is a superior fielder, a should be gold glover. I really got thinking about this after Chuck Garfien tweeted "Gordon Beckham = Gold Glover." Thinking led to writing and here we are. Is Gordon Beckham a good, nee, great fielder?
Comparing Beckham to the Gold Glove winners in the years he has been a second baseman, the answer to the great fielder question is no. Since Gold Glove is a bit of an older, traditional award (not to mention biased toward better offensive players) I just compared Beckham's counting/traditional stats to the winner in each year.
2010
Beckham PO: 245 A: 375 DP: 100 E: 12 Fielding %: .981 (games at second 126)
Robinson Cano PO: 341 A: 432 DP: 114 E: 3 Fielding %: .996 (games 158)
2011
Beckham PO 272 A: 443 DP: 84 E: 8 Fielding %: .989
Pedroia: PO 290 A: 425 DP 81 E: 7 Fielding %: .990
2012
Beckham: PO: 280 A: 411 DP: 110 E: 7 Fielding %: .990
Cano: PO: 285 A: 435 DP: 92 E: 6 Fielding %: .992
2013
Beckham PO: 212 A: 255 DP: 69 E: 12 Fielding %: .975
Pedroia: PO: 254 A: 429 DP: 102 E: 5 Fielding %: .993
Looking at these numbers, Beckham is pretty comparable in 2011 and 2012 but not so much in 2010 or 2013. Interestingly he played his fewest games in 2010 and 2013, yet had his highest totals in errors which adversely affected his fielding percentage. Having said that, I don't think, at least in relation to the winners of each respective year, that one could say Beckham was slighted by not winning the award. In no season that he has been at second base has Beckham been better than the recipient of the Gold Glove. It's been close for sure, but no injustice.
Other statistics tell a different story. The first is the Fielding Bible Awards, voted on annually by a bunch of Bill James's buddies. Before you go all nerdaphobic, well sure some of the guys are saberheads (Bill James, Brian Kenny, Dave Cameron), but not all of them. The panel also consists of folks like Doug Glanville and Peter Gammons. In 2010, Beckham didn't receive any votes from the panel and had his lowest runs saved, -4. In 2011 Beckham was ranked 9th for the Fielding Bible and 10th in runs saved; 2012, Beckham missed the top 10 in MLB by one vote. He also didn't crack the top 10 in runs saved. In 2013, Beckham only received 5 votes for the Fielding Bible Award, putting him well behind the leaders. As far as runs saved, he scored his second lowest total -3. So with the a second body of evidence, (and we could dig deeper into the Bill James Handbook, but I won't) the results a about the same, if not a little bleaker for Beckham. If I had to place a value on Beckham from what the Fielding Bible folks say, it would be he's ok. Not an elite and is capable of actually hurting the team, albeit only slightly with his fielding.
The last place to look is in the more other metrics. According to Baseball-Reference and Baseball Info Solutions, Beckham's career Total Runs Above Average is -3. His best year was 2011 when he posted a 4, Pedroia that year had a 9. In his other years at second base he either posted a 0 or a negative number.
The other measure from Saberland is UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating) from Fangraphs, who also use Baseball Info Solutions data. I found this from the glossary very helpful. My research-oriented brain wants to understand more, but I'm not ready for that rabbit hole just yet. If you look at that definition, UZR isn't particularly difficult to understand. It is just another counting stat, just a really big one. It also involves averages, but I'm pretty sure that is sixth grade math, so I'm good. When we start talking linear weights and such my math phobia starts to kick in, damn Sister Mary Monica and her algebra overhead transparencies.
Back to Gordon: According to the glossary entry, UZR breaks down like this: Gold Glover: 15+, Great: +10, Above Average: +5, Average: 0, Below Average: -5, Poor: -10, Awful: -15. Beckham finds himself slightly above average for his career with a 3.7 UZR and a .7 for UZR/150. For a little context, Beckham's best defensive year 2011 he had a 2.8 UZR and 2.7 UZR/150. The Gold Glove winner that year Dustin Pedroia? 18.1 UZR 19.6 UZR/150.
So, where does that leave us? Does Chuck Garfien's tweet, "Gordon Beckham = Gold Glove" ring true? Not really. Beckham is an average second basemen, has some years better than others, which is the definition of average. I think it allows for a certain amount of subjectivity which I think is inherent in defensive assessment. In better years, Beckham has been recognized with some votes for the Fielding Bible Awards and conversely not so much when he's been below average. Beckham isn't a liability, but he isn't the rock that some people portray him as either. His defensive play isn't enough to keep Micah Johnson from taking his place and he hasn't earned a gold glove.
The Hawk
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I don't? Okay, then, educate me on it. And in the process, please teach me what kind of skills a "utility" player needs to have in order to help his team and how Beckham fill those requirements.
The Hawk
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Will some kind person please tell me what is going on here? Its like there is a discussion going on without any record of it?
The Hawk
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Staff online NOW
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bamainatlantaYou wake him up, you keep him up
