Cole hamels

TC in Mississippi said:

Listen, I completely agree and they will watch that closely, I just think they're a pretty unlikely partner for Amaro. Now a new GM? That I can see. I think Amaro is going to get someone's #1 prospect, the rest of it will be less than he wants but Hamel signed to that affordable is worth at least that prospect, or a huge package of promising prospects. Some top contender's ace goes down and Amaro is on the phone. I could see The Dodgers, Angels, Cardinals or even the Padres get involved in season and all have the currency to make the trade. I don't see Bryant, Soler, Russell or Schwarber traded for Hamels. If the market never emerges I hope he becomes a viable target.

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I actually could see the cubs going with Alcantara at 2B and moving Baez in a deal. ..

So with that thought...

Maybe Amaro would go for some sort of package involving Castillo Baez and either Amora or Mckinney

chibears55 said:

Sure anything pissible..long way to the offseason

if those guys are available and want to play for cubs great...but their gonna be looking for close to 7 yrs 140 + deals..

If they can nab Hamels for a couple prospects and only have to pay him for 4 or 5 yrs I think theyd prefer that route over paying a guy 20+ mil for 7 yrs..

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You can't just look at the dollar figure for Hamels as relatively inexpensive. There is a huge cost in prospects. If they land Russell, Almora, Johnson, and Vogelbach for example, not only would the Cubs have to pay Hamels annual salary, but the cost of replacing controlled players adds to the bottom line also.

If you have Addison Russell making the league minimum for 3 years at roughly a 1.5 million (not including ARB years) over that stretch, what is that worth to a franchise as far as payroll flexibility if you are not paying 13-15 million per year for his replacement?

I have not included any of the other prospects either and there is no guarantee that they will all make any impact in the future. We saw this year that by having guys like Hendricks, Baez, and Alcantara, it opened up payroll for free agent signings.

That stands to get even better if Bryant and Russell make the leap.

The key here is to have a good mix of free agents and in-house brand names. That's how the Cardinals have done it for a long stretch, and they have set the bench mark.

Like another poster that I know said above, we need to move on from Hamels. It is not worth taking a huge hit in the prospect pool even though the Cubs will have to eventually move some of them.

The key is to be patient, and something will open up.

Boobaby1 said:

Like another poster that I know said above, we need to move on from Hamels. It is not worth taking a huge hit in the prospect pool even though the Cubs will have to eventually move some of them.

The key is to be patient, and something will open up.

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You cant move on from Hamel because right now if the Cubs are serious in acquiring another TOR starter now.. he the best available option

Who says it has to be a huge hit in the prospect pool ?

Its an IF, but IF amaro needs to pull the trigger on a deal the cubs just may be his best suitor that can offer both major league talent and solid prospects without digging deep into the pool

chibears55 said:

You cant move on from Hamel because right now if the Cubs are serious in acquiring another TOR starter now.. he the best available option

Who says it has to be a huge hit in the prospect pool ?

Its an IF, but IF amaro needs to pull the trigger on a deal the cubs just may be his best suitor that can offer both major league talent and solid prospects without digging deep into the pool

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Let me ask you this, what if Arietta is terrific this year and you have two legitimate TOR starters in JA and Lester? Do you still feel you need Hamels? What if those same prospects could get you Sonny Gray or another young pitcher like that? I just don't think Hamels is the only answer or even the best answer. What if the same things happens, CJ Edwards looks ready, they can extend Arrieta and sign Doug Fister? Frankly that could mean Jason Hammell is expendable and you replenish prospects rather than spend them. These guys know what they want out of a pitching staff and are going to pursue every opportunity to get there.

TC in Mississippi said:

Let me ask you this, what if Arietta is terrific this year and you have two legitimate TOR starters in JA and Lester? Do you still feel you need Hamels? What if those same prospects could get you Sonny Gray or another young pitcher like that? I just don't think Hamels is the only answer or even the best answer. What if the same things happens, CJ Edwards looks ready, they can extend Arrieta and sign Doug Fister? Frankly that could mean Jason Hammell is expendable and you replenish prospects rather than spend them. These guys know what they want out of a pitching staff and are going to pursue every opportunity to get there.

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Agreed. Patience will win out. I know it's tough as the Cubs have made progress this off-season, but they are in it for the long haul and Theo has already stated that he screwed up once before when he let the near future cloud his vision in Boston as he fell victim to the free agency to stay extremely competitive.

There are still too many things that have to go right to catch the Pirates and Cardinals, and although Hamels might get them closer, he is not worth emptying the farm to get that much closer with some impending free agents that will be out there.

Their will be teams that will take a lot less for their pitcher. Hamels is the big name right now out there, and it is best to exercise caution about throwing prospects around (especially some of the better ones) for a 31 year old pitcher. Yes, I know he is damn good, but since Washington has a surplus of pitching, and are poised to lose some of it, they would be a team like I said that will eventually need a CF'er (which the Cubs have in the minors) as they may lose Denard Span, so the Cubs might be able to pry one of those away that they are sure to lose with a lot less than what Philly will be asking for.

The key here is years left. Washington is ready to lose guys and need to sell and Philly doesn't, and that's why they are asking for the moon and will probably get it from somebody. I highly doubt it will be from the Cubs.

If Hamels was the same age as a Chris Sale or Clayton Kershaw, now you are talking a whole other animal.

TC in Mississippi said:

Let me ask you this, what if Arietta is terrific this year and you have two legitimate TOR starters in JA and Lester? Do you still feel you need Hamels? What if those same prospects could get you Sonny Gray or another young pitcher like that? I just don't think Hamels is the only answer or even the best answer. What if the same things happens, CJ Edwards looks ready, they can extend Arrieta and sign Doug Fister? Frankly that could mean Jason Hammell is expendable and you replenish prospects rather than spend them. These guys know what they want out of a pitching staff and are going to pursue every opportunity to get there.

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Why do you think the As will move Sonny Gray ?

He an Arb player making 900,000 and wont be a FA til 2020
I would think Beane will hold him for a while....


Arrieta not a FA til 2018, so they wouldn't have to seriously deal with his contract until Hamels is done..
So as far as money goes there no problem there. .

If Arrieta becomes a legit TOR starter, then adding Hamels just makes the rotation that much stronger. .. especially during the playoffs with 3 solid starters at the top...


Look.. All im saying is... If the cubs are still interested in adding Hamels now, i dont think it going to cost as much in top prospects as some think.... and i feel the cubs could probably offer up the best package using a combination of younger prospects, top prospects, and major league players..
whichever would satisfy Amaro

chibears55 said:

Why do you think the As will move Sonny Gray ?

He an Arb player making 900,000 and wont be a FA til 2020
I would think Beane will hold him for a while....


Arrieta not a FA til 2018, so they wouldn't have to seriously deal with his contract until Hamels is done..
So as far as money goes there no problem there. .

If Arrieta becomes a legit TOR starter, then adding Hamels just makes the rotation that much stronger. .. especially during the playoffs with 3 solid starters at the top...


Look.. All im saying is... If the cubs are still interested in adding Hamels now, i dont think it going to cost as much in top prospects as some think.... and i feel the cubs could probably offer up the best package using a combination of younger prospects, top prospects, and major league players..
whichever would satisfy Amaro

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I use Gray as an example but if this latest tack doesn't work he's got a system to rebuild and he's very good at drafting pitching, it would make sense to get hitting from a position of strength. I could have said Noah Syndergaard. You never know who becomes available. These guys very nearly got James Shields for under market value. I'm just saying they'll add when it's time. As was stated above jumping Pittsburgh and St. Louis, right now, is unlikely. Maybe in July it won't be. Next offseason the path could become more clear. Getting Hamels now would be an overpay, guaranteed. Maybe they'll have to do that, maybe they won't but doing it now makes little sense IMO.

TC in Mississippi said:

I use Gray as an example but if this latest tack doesn't work he's got a system to rebuild and he's very good at drafting pitching, it would make sense to get hitting from a position of strength. I could have said Noah Syndergaard. You never know who becomes available. These guys very nearly got James Shields for under market value. I'm just saying they'll add when it's time. As was stated above jumping Pittsburgh and St. Louis, right now, is unlikely. Maybe in July it won't be. Next offseason the path could become more clear. Getting Hamels now would be an overpay, guaranteed. Maybe they'll have to do that, maybe they won't but doing it now makes little sense IMO.

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Im not saying they should break the prospect bank to get him..

I know some of you feel Amaro going to stand pst on what he wants with a couple of top prospects ..

I just personally feel it wont cost that much when the dust clears and Amaro ready to deal him..
I just think the cubs have the most to offer in a total package of talent..

If you're right they'll be in it when that happens. The Shields situation shows that. I'm looking at the packages that the Padres, Dodgers and Red Sox were reported to have offered and all of them were better than what I would guess the Cubs would be willing to give up at this point.

TC in Mississippi said:

If you're right they'll be in it when that happens. The Shields situation shows that. I'm looking at the packages that the Padres, Dodgers and Red Sox were reported to have offered and all of them were better than what I would guess the Cubs would be willing to give up at this point.

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Redsox offer had more major league players on it...
Phills want 1 of their 2 top kids and Bosox wont bite..

Padres arent interested anymore since they signed Sheild, saying phils wanted too much..


Dodgers last week says their not going to move any of their top young talent and their done pursuing starting pitchers now. .


so, i think what you saw was what the Phillies wanted from them..not what they offered


So, as i was saying... If cubs are interested and Amaro feels the pressure to deal Hamels. .. the cubs may be able to come up with the best package that won't break their prospect bank. .

Be something to watch with the phillies and Hamels as they get deeper into ST and maybe into the season. ..

Jon Heyman reiterated what many said throughout the off-season: “Some are suggesting the trading phase of the Phillies’ rebuild is going too slow because Amaro loves his players too much, and is asking for way too much.” Heyman has also heard Amaro Jr. is “looking for three nice prospect pieces with at least one ready to go to the bigs” for Hamels. And Heyman pointed out that the GM he spoke to said Mookie Betts or Blake Swihart “shouldn’t be too much to ask for an ace like Hamels.”

Heyman added that with the Phillies acquiring pitching in the Jimmy Rollins and Marlon Byrd trades, Amaro Jr. would prefer top hitting prospects for Hamels. Jim Bowden has heard the Phillies would like a top pitching prospect in the deal for Hamels along with a top hitting prospect. And reports throughout the off-season pointed to the Phillies wanting a catcher included in the package for Hamels.

The Cubs are believed to be interested in acquiring Cole Hamels, but Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer are not willing to pay Ruben Amaro Jr.’s asking price. The Phillies’ front office has had their eye on Addison Russell since last summer. But the Cubs will not include Russell, Kris Bryant or Jorge Soler in a package for Hamels. It’s believed the Cubs have a package of players in mind that would satisfy Amaro Jr., but it does not include one of the three players he’s most interested in.

With Ruben Amaro Jr. telling teams he has to clearly win a trade for Hamels and that a team will have to overpay in order to acquire him, the Cole Hamels updates are not going to end anytime soon.

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You have to look at other pitchers like I stated, as a pitcher like Doug Fister (who costs no prospects except more than likely a draft pick) is just as good, if not better than Hamels? :dunno:

Heyman article said:

With Ruben Amaro Jr. telling teams he has to clearly win a trade for Hamels and that a team will have to overpay in order to acquire him, the Cole Hamels updates are not going to end anytime soon.

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That's just dumb, especially the time of year.

chibears55 said:

Redsox offer had more major league players on it...
Phills want 1 of their 2 top kids and Bosox wont bite..

Padres arent interested anymore since they signed Sheild, saying phils wanted too much..


Dodgers last week says their not going to move any of their top young talent and their done pursuing starting pitchers now. .


so, i think what you saw was what the Phillies wanted from them..not what they offered


So, as i was saying... If cubs are interested and Amaro feels the pressure to deal Hamels. .. the cubs may be able to come up with the best package that won't break their prospect bank. .

Be something to watch with the phillies and Hamels as they get deeper into ST and maybe into the season. ..

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No, what he wanted was wishful thinking, the reported offers were pretty good particularly the San Diego offer the weekend before they signed Shields. The Red Sox were reportedly willing to discuss Betts but not Swihart or Bogaerts and were turned down. I'd have to dig for the Dodgers offer but it was respectable. All I've seen here are proposals with guys nobody wants like Wood, Castillo, Olt and sometimes led by Baez who is valuable but who's stock is low right now. Realistically Hamels is worth ONE top prospect and a solid package of not far away prospects with some risk. Too much for the Cubs. I'm just ready to talk real games and see what we actually have on our favorite club.

As much as i would like to have Hamels on the Cubs this season i think Philly is going to wait until they get that Elite prospect. They don't need to trade him now nor do they even have to trade him this season. They are going to(should) wait until a team gets desperate enough for trade a Russell for a 1-2 year rental like the cubs saw last year, with Shark and Hammels going to the As. I still think they are asking too much if the want an organizations top two prospects but.

*First Post*

Solid first post, Nick. Welcome to the Cubs board.

Nick said:

I still think they are asking too much if the want an organizations top two prospects but.

*First Post*

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Welcome to the board.

Put yourself in Philly's GM's shoes. You have one of the top lefty's (he's #4 of all lefties behind Kershaw, Sale, Baumgartner) and, likely in your opinion--a top 10 pitcher in his prime, in the league under contract and he's still got about 2-3 really good years left.

You're telling me you wouldn't ask for a team's top 2 prospects off the bat? I'd demand a king's ransom. That's what a good GM does. Then comes down getting certain pieces he needs to move forward.

Philly has the upper hand in any potential deal. They don't have to trade him. Teams will have to pry him away with a deal too good to be true. If the cubs REALLY want Cole Hamels, expect them to part with one of Russell, Bryant, or Soler. Right now the cubs should just hold onto them and see what else is out there, or stand pat.

Philly did exactly what I expected them to do--attach a high price tag, and the cubs followed suit and did exactly what I expected them to do--offer up an okay deal for a top pitcher and get shut down.

It takes two teams to trade. Fans often forget that.

Zvbxrpl said:

Welcome to the board.

Put yourself in Philly's GM's shoes. You have one of the top lefty's (he's #4 of all lefties behind Kershaw, Sale, Baumgartner) and, likely in your opinion--a top 10 pitcher in his prime, in the league under contract and he's still got about 2-3 really good years left.

You're telling me you wouldn't ask for a team's top 2 prospects off the bat? I'd demand a king's ransom. That's what a good GM does. Then comes down getting certain pieces he needs to move forward.

Philly has the upper hand in any potential deal. They don't have to trade him. Teams will have to pry him away with a deal too good to be true. If the cubs REALLY want Cole Hamels, expect them to part with one of Russell, Bryant, or Soler. Right now the cubs should just hold onto them and see what else is out there, or stand pat.

Philly did exactly what I expected them to do--attach a high price tag, and the cubs followed suit and did exactly what I expected them to do--offer up an okay deal for a top pitcher and get shut down.

It takes two teams to trade. Fans often forget that.

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I'm pretty strongly on record as saying that I don't disagree with the value Amaro Jr. has put on Hamels, but I disagree that the Phillies don't have to trade him, or at least are getting close to that point. They have the 26th ranked farm system in baseball and will probably be one of the 2 or 3 worst teams in MLB this year and have yet to embark on any sort of a rebuild whatsoever. Sooner rather than later you would think they would have to get going on that. The main reason they haven't is that Amaro has sold his bosses on the idea that with the value of Hamels and hopefully a healthy Cliff Lee along with several expiring contracts over the next two years that he can retool this team as opposed to breaking it all the way down and rebuild it. Ie. closer to what the White Sox have done to what the Cubs or Astros have done. With Hamels below market contract he will have value for awhile but an injury would derail any proposed retooling or rebuilding so I would argue that a decision has to made sometime in 2015. Many in the Philadelphia press are saying that while the Phillies brass has a lot of loyalty to Amaro their patience is running thin. There are also very few teams that have the human assets to trade for Hamels. I've said repeatedly that I don't think Amaro can afford to take a bad deal for Hamels but his time could run out and a new GM might be left with the decision.

His value is high but the problem is Bryant is most likely going to end up a super star. Not to mention he is on the verge. Russell IMO is reasonable to start with as the Cubs have Castro at SS.

If Philly said Baez, Alcantara and Edwards I would say ok. Cubs would just back fill 2B with LaStella until Russell is ready. Olt can man 3B for a few weeks.

End of the day is the Cubs do not have to do a damn thing. They really do not. No one expects them (outside of Rizzo) to be a contender this year. Most expect excitement with Soler, Bryant, Alcantara and Baez. Rizzo having talent around him. Later year Russell getting close. Seeing how Schwarber does in his first full season. Almora hopefully bouncing back. Edwards proving to be real or not as a pitching prospect.

There is plenty going on where the quest for a contender doesn't have to be the main story for 2015. I believe there is plenty of interest going on already as a fan to wait and see.

TC in Mississippi said:

I'm pretty strongly on record as saying that I don't disagree with the value Amaro Jr. has put on Hamels, but I disagree that the Phillies don't have to trade him, or at least are getting close to that point. They have the 26th ranked farm system in baseball and will probably be one of the 2 or 3 worst teams in MLB this year and have yet to embark on any sort of a rebuild whatsoever. Sooner rather than later you would think they would have to get going on that. The main reason they haven't is that Amaro has sold his bosses on the idea that with the value of Hamels and hopefully a healthy Cliff Lee along with several expiring contracts over the next two years that he can retool this team as opposed to breaking it all the way down and rebuild it. Ie. closer to what the White Sox have done to what the Cubs or Astros have done. With Hamels below market contract he will have value for awhile but an injury would derail any proposed retooling or rebuilding so I would argue that a decision has to made sometime in 2015. Many in the Philadelphia press are saying that while the Phillies brass has a lot of loyalty to Amaro their patience is running thin. There are also very few teams that have the human assets to trade for Hamels. I've said repeatedly that I don't think Amaro can afford to take a bad deal for Hamels but his time could run out and a new GM might be left with the decision.

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It doesn't matter what you think about Hamels' value, its what Ruben Amaro decides.

Philly doesn't have to trade him. Like Kerry Wood and dozens of other former stars, the nostalgia of having the hometown guy going through a rebuild may help fans pay money to go see their teams.

The Phillies also have an old-school, what some of you may consider archaic type thinking process about the team and how its run.

I don't know of any of you get ESPN Magazine, but there was a very interesting article in the most recent issue with A-Roid on the cover called: "The Great Analytics Rankings; Is your team a believer?"

It goes through all the major sports leagues and each teams' front office/management's uses/belief of analytics, listing examples. In the 'nonbeliever' section of the MLB rankings ranks the Phillies and the Marlins. Which is about right. These are kinds of teams that use eye tests and ignore advanced metrics, and have had success before in this use.

I of course, am a skeptic. If you're going to try and tell me a triple crown winner Miggy Cabrera a couple years ago is only worth 7 wins, I'll call you a Special person and never take you or your future posts seriously.

You're going to tell me Chris Sale was only worth 5.5 wins last year, only missing a month? The article projects Sale's WAR to be 5.4 in 2016 and do nothing but lower in the coming years. I assume they think his arm will fall off. I'm also willing to bet they thought Randy Johnson's arm would fall off too.......

Whoever believes this is out of their fucking mind. Its garbage because not every superstar is the kind of player who works a pitch count to 10, walks a lot, or in Darwin Barney's case, hit .200 and somehow be responsible for 5 wins. But I wont get side tracked any further.

A rebuild in Philly based on this and what we've seen from them in the past is most likely to come through 'retooling,' or waiting another year or two to shed Utley, Papelbon, Howard, and Cliff Lee's contracts and retool through a few free agents, whatever they may be at the time. They will also mix in a few drafts picks too, taking the boom/bust guys. They got a few high potential specs too in Mikel Franco, Nola, and JP Crawford.

I don't think they give a fuck about the 26th ranked farm unless Amaro gets shitcanned and you see an overhaul with 'sabremetricians'. Like WAR or any advanced metric stat, its just a number that's only as good as the stock you personally put into it. The Cubs have Keith Law's :fap: approval, does that mean everybody pans out? No way. Byron Buxton was a lot of "analyst's" top prospect of 2014 and what happened? He sucked. Cant spin that.

Back to Philly and Hamels. Absolutely they're asking too much. In a perfect world, would you trade the possible potential of some of your top prospects for this guy for a likely 2-3 year rental? Probably not, depending on who you ask.

But they can be obnoxious in their search for a return. Hamels is locked up til 2019, possibly 2020 depending on the option and what the Phillies want to do. If I were them. I wouldn't be in any rush, and as Nick said above--wait and see if someone gets real desperate come June/July and gives me a king's ransom.

If not, no problem. He'll stay in a Phillies uni.

They don't have to play by your rules. They don't have to be nice guys about it either. You want my best player? You give me what I want/a compromise where I get 3 of the 5 guys I want in a package/return.

No, what Philly receives in trade will not be what Ruben Amaro decides.

It will be what Ruben Amaro can convince someone else of. That is far different.

And as far as anyone suggesting Bryant in a trade, I will predict one thing: The Cubs will not trade Kris Bryant. Period. No way. No how.