Chris Sale out at least 3 weeks.

SilenceS said:

It deserved a disliking. :dunno:

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Let's look at some prior analysis of Sales's mechanics.........

Chris Sale and his faulty elbow

I’ve asked Keith on Twitter (@keithlaw if you decide to do the same) why he thinks Sale’s arm action has a higher propensity for elbow injury, but he hasn’t commented on the specifics of his claims.

Sale’s Mechanics: Then and now

Here are two clips of Chris Sale pitching against Oakland, both in the Coliseum. These are two different years. One clip has Sale throwing a 95 mph fastball, the other a 93 mph fastball. Both came in the eighth inning. Can you tell me which one came from 2012 and which one came from 2011?



If I hadn’t cut the video, I bet I wouldn’t have been able to do better than simply flipping a coin and guessing, though I might choose the clip where Sale is throwing 95 mph over the one where he came in as a reliever in 2011.

I’d be wrong. Sale was throwing 95 mph in Oakland in the eighth inning as a starter on April 25.
My point is that Sale’s mechanics between 2011 and 2012 have not meaningfully changed. (If you slow the clip you can see some minor differences with the glove leg and trunk flexion, though.)

But why does Law think that Sale is an injury risk? I won’t speculate on his reasons; rather, I’ll discuss some scientific research that might shed a light on Sale’s pitching mechanics.

Sidearmers, valgus stress, and you

Generally speaking, Sale has a fairly internally rotated humerus at stride foot contact (SFC) and, combined with his high rates of pelvic and shoulder rotation, he lays his forearm back into external rotation during arm cocking quite fast. This certainly will increase the eccentric load on the shoulder, though whether or not this is specifically injurious is debatable.

However, Sale is also a sidearmer, and research does indicate that sidearm pitchers are generally at higher risk for increased elbow valgus torque. (Source: Aguinaldo et al; ignore the “conclusion” contradiction, Aguinaldo has said it’s a typo/mistake in the abstract that isn’t there in the full paper. Read it here if you like). Increased elbow valgus stress is highly correlated with UCL tears/sprains, especially when combined with a more-extended elbow at ball release (which Sale does have).

The theory that sidearm pitchers are at higher risk for elbow injuries seems to hold water based on previously conducted research out there, though it’s worth noting most sidearm pitchers have lower ball velocity than high three-quarters and overhand pitchers (for whatever reason). Ball velocity is obviously very highly correlated with valgus stress, so the net effect may be lowered amongst all sidearmers. Of course, Sale throws very hard, so that’s not applicable to him.

Whether or not Law looked at Sale’s mechanics through this type of research lens is unknown, but he’s probably onto something. It should be interesting to watch Sale’s velocity over the rest of the year, and beyond.............

Bear Pride said:

Let's look at some prior analysis of Sales's mechanics.........

Chris Sale and his faulty elbow

I’ve asked Keith on Twitter (@keithlaw if you decide to do the same) why he thinks Sale’s arm action has a higher propensity for elbow injury, but he hasn’t commented on the specifics of his claims.

Sale’s Mechanics: Then and now

Here are two clips of Chris Sale pitching against Oakland, both in the Coliseum. These are two different years. One clip has Sale throwing a 95 mph fastball, the other a 93 mph fastball. Both came in the eighth inning. Can you tell me which one came from 2012 and which one came from 2011?

If I hadn’t cut the video, I bet I wouldn’t have been able to do better than simply flipping a coin and guessing, though I might choose the clip where Sale is throwing 95 mph over the one where he came in as a reliever in 2011.

I’d be wrong. Sale was throwing 95 mph in Oakland in the eighth inning as a starter on April 25.
My point is that Sale’s mechanics between 2011 and 2012 have not meaningfully changed. (If you slow the clip you can see some minor differences with the glove leg and trunk flexion, though.)

But why does Law think that Sale is an injury risk? I won’t speculate on his reasons; rather, I’ll discuss some scientific research that might shed a light on Sale’s pitching mechanics.

Sidearmers, valgus stress, and you

Generally speaking, Sale has a fairly internally rotated humerus at stride foot contact (SFC) and, combined with his high rates of pelvic and shoulder rotation, he lays his forearm back into external rotation during arm cocking quite fast. This certainly will increase the eccentric load on the shoulder, though whether or not this is specifically injurious is debatable.

However, Sale is also a sidearmer, and research does indicate that sidearm pitchers are generally at higher risk for increased elbow valgus torque. (Source: Aguinaldo et al; ignore the “conclusion” contradiction, Aguinaldo has said it’s a typo/mistake in the abstract that isn’t there in the full paper. Read it here if you like). Increased elbow valgus stress is highly correlated with UCL tears/sprains, especially when combined with a more-extended elbow at ball release (which Sale does have).

The theory that sidearm pitchers are at higher risk for elbow injuries seems to hold water based on previously conducted research out there, though it’s worth noting most sidearm pitchers have lower ball velocity than high three-quarters and overhand pitchers (for whatever reason). Ball velocity is obviously very highly correlated with valgus stress, so the net effect may be lowered amongst all sidearmers. Of course, Sale throws very hard, so that’s not applicable to him.

Whether or not Law looked at Sale’s mechanics through this type of research lens is unknown, but he’s probably onto something. It should be interesting to watch Sale’s velocity over the rest of the year, and beyond.............

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That wasnt the post I disliked you on. lol

brett05 said:

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So I was wrong, it's the 4th season ...........

Annual Chris Sale injury scare results in first trip to disabled list

Flexor muscle strain in left elbow sidelines ace, but preliminary MRI returns show no ligament damage.

For the third straight season, Chris Sale has put everybody through an early-season injury scare. It's getting to be a tradition, kind of like Gordon Beckham's "This is why I've turned the corner this time" speeches, but not nearly as charming.

Especially since this one involves a new wrinkle -- a stint on the disabled list due to a flexor muscle strain in his left arm.
The preliminary results of Sale's MRI showed that his elbow ligament is in working order, and that allowed Rick Hahn to put a positive spin on it:

SilenceS said:

That wasnt the post I disliked you on. lol

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Oh I see, you feel the need to speak for Parade? LOL is right. Parade was mature enough to not take that the wrong way. I guess you're not. LOL at you as a Mod is the reality of the situation. Imo, you're an embarrassment to CCS and the Cubs forum.

Bear Pride said:

So I was wrong, it's the 4th season ...........

Annual Chris Sale injury scare results in first trip to disabled list

Flexor muscle strain in left elbow sidelines ace, but preliminary MRI returns show no ligament damage.

For the third straight season, Chris Sale has put everybody through an early-season injury scare. It's getting to be a tradition, kind of like Gordon Beckham's "This is why I've turned the corner this time" speeches, but not nearly as charming.

Especially since this one involves a new wrinkle -- a stint on the disabled list due to a flexor muscle strain in his left arm.
The preliminary results of Sale's MRI showed that his elbow ligament is in working order, and that allowed Rick Hahn to put a positive spin on it:

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FIRST TRIP. So not injury prone. Thanks!

Sale had several things going on in that comparison that were interesting. From the back it looked like the inverted W (although he is hunched over a bit, so that's hard to say 100%), however, it also appears that he gets the ball up soon enough to not have the timing issue usually associated with the inverted W. I may have to dig up more video, as I've never really checked out a sidearmer's mechanics very closely.

Bear Pride said:

Oh I see, you feel the need to speak for Parade? LOL is right. Parade was mature enough to not take that the wrong way. I guess you're not. LOL at you as a Mod is the reality of the situation. Imo, you're an embarrassment to CCS and the Cubs forum.

Click to expand...

Mods are people, too.

Bear Pride said:

Oh I see, you feel the need to speak for Parade? LOL is right. Parade was mature enough to not take that the wrong way. I guess you're not. LOL at you as a Mod is the reality of the situation. Imo, you're an embarrassment to CCS and the Cubs forum.

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Thanks! =)

And here's a current article letting us know that the Sox are aware that the "landing foot" is a concern, but they will take their time. Good thing the Sox aren't just writing it off as a small thing. :yep:

Chris Sale unlikely to start opening day as White Sox think long term

"It's the full season that you're really concerned about," Ventura said. "If he misses the first week, that's still going to be enough time for him to come in and help us reach the postseason. It's more of an enduring part — of lasting throughout the season — than it is just that first week."

Sox pitching coach Don Cooper is optimistic that Sale's injury won't keep him out for an extended period and said Sale can do arm-strengthening exercises while he's out to stay as ready as possible.

"No matter what foot you are talking about, left foot or right foot, it's part of his body and it's something that has to heal up," Cooper said. "It's the landing foot. I don't think it's going to be a really, really long one. That's my gut feel. But heck, it's a foundation. If one of your feet is bothering you … no matter what job it is, it makes things more difficult."


Cooper was asked whether the foot injury could cause overcompensation that might hurt Sale's arm down the line.
"That's not going to happen because we are going to make sure it's right ... before he does anything," Cooper said.

The issue with disliking people, is that any smart person is just going to dislike you back. Screw that. Work your stuff out like grown adults and if you can't use the ignore list. I actually do have several posters on my ignore list and it has made posting on the baseball forums here much easier on the eyes and the brains. Outside of the people who wish to just stir up trouble, there are some very smart contributors on the forums here. That said, I had to dislike Tribar earlier as a response, because he decided that he needed to dislike me.

Parade_Rain said:

Mods are people, too.

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Yes, and like people, there's good people, and well, .......... on that note, I'd suggest the Cubs Mod look towards the new Sox mod, as to how it's done.

That's one advantage I'll give the Sox going into this awesome new Baseball year. =)

And with respect for the OP, back to the original thread subject, to which I feel I've contributed a lot of information that actually pertains to the OP.......................

#gocubs

Parade_Rain said:

The issue with disliking people, is that any smart person is just going to dislike you back. Screw that. Work your stuff out like grown adults and if you can't use the ignore list. I actually do have several posters on my ignore list and it has made posting on the baseball forums here much easier on the eyes and the brains. Outside of the people who wish to just stir up trouble, there are some very smart contributors on the forums here. That said, I had to dislike Tribar earlier as a response, because he decided that he needed to dislike me.

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Is that smart or childish?

Bear Pride said:

Yes, and like people, there's good people, and well, .......... on that note, I'd suggest the Cubs Mod look towards the new Sox mod, as to how it's done.

That's one advantage I'll give the Sox going into this awesome new Baseball year. =)

#gocubs

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Nah. You do not want a bunch of Stepford Mods. Part of interacting with people is give and take. Silence posts a lot of good stuff throughout the season. Slow down there. Take a breath and give some of the more witty folks a chance.

And as for that advantage, it would be undisputed (pun intended). Besides, Silence is only a half-mod.

brett05 said:

Is that smart or childish?

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Smart. It let's the dislike-repper know that the dislike system isn't free. It's sort of like global thermo nuclear war, Professor Falken. No one wins, which is why there is detente.

Parade_Rain said:

Nah. You do not want a bunch of Stepford Mods. Part of interacting with people is give and take. Silence posts a lot of good stuff throughout the season. Slow down there. Take a breath and give some of the more witty folks a chance.

And as for that advantage, it would be undisputed (pun intended). Besides, Silence is only a half-mod.

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So is Undisputed. =)

brett05 said:

FIRST TRIP. So not injury prone. Thanks!

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Who said anything about the DL? I could debate that his 'annual' injuries are thus getting worse, but......... you keep fooling yourself with your mindless fantasy about your Ace, but I will hold to my original point that, hopefully, this doesn't lead to something more in the future. Just don't be sensitive that I remind you if it does, but again, hopefully it doesn't. YOU are the one that motivates people to do stuff like that.

#gocubs
#imout

SilenceS said:

So is Undisputed. =)

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Well then, it's a push!

Parade_Rain said:

Smart. It let's the dislike-repper know that the dislike system isn't free. It's sort of like global thermo nuclear war, Professor Falken. No one wins, which is why there is detente.

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Seems super childish now.

Still. props for there Joshua for the Wargames reference

Bear Pride said:

Who said anything about the DL? I could debate that his 'annual' injuries are thus getting worse, but......... you keep fooling yourself with your mindless fantasy about your Ace, but I will hold to my original point that, hopefully, this doesn't lead to something more in the future. Just don't be sensitive that I remind you if it does, but again, hopefully it doesn't. YOU are the one that motivates people to do stuff like that.

#gocubs
#imout

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you are weak sauces then

On the note of Chris Sale, looks like he will not make the opening day start.

Colleen Kane of the Chicago Tribune said:

GLENDALE, Ariz. — White Sox manager Robin Ventura admitted Sunday that left-hander Chris Sale's chances of starting on opening day are "slim" because of the avulsion fracture in his right foot that likely will keep him away from baseball activities for three weeks.

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via http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-white-sox-chris-sale-jeff-samardzija-spt-0302-20150301-story.html

I am glad he's not being rushed back, as I hoped for. But it sucks he won't make the opening start. Oh well, Samardzija will more than likely get the nod. Let's hope he can dodge the bad juju with Chicago sports right now.

Parade_Rain said:

Well then, it's a push!

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As long as it isn't a shove, we're cool...:smoke: