Does hostility from management help a team succeed?

FirstTimer

v. 2.0: Fully Modded
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
May 4, 2010
Posts:
27,077
Liked Posts:
15,163
I always love the Aldridge was traded argument. With the way the draft is the Bulls were never going to take Aldridge. The plan was to draft Aldridge for Portland and trade him for Tyrus Thomas. One of those silly draft day things. For whatever reason Paxson bit on Tyrus Thomas's stellar tournament play and saw some sort of potential. I always thought Tyrus had potential, but he never had the maturity to learn the game.

Kirk was the BPA at that point and insurance for Jay Williams... Paxson actually did a lot to try and get Wade in that draft, but Miami, rightfully so, wouldn't bite. I think there was always hope BG and Deng would become solid All-Stars. Deng had two years as a All-Star, but I feel that was more so Thibs getting the absolute most out of him (Though the way Deng finished the 06-07 season I thought 07-08 he'd step up and become an All-Star, instead he went backwards).

Yeah I know that was the plan. I'm just saying another GM would've just decided to draft him outright that year. Tyrus has ridiculous potential and if he put it together he could've been Larry Nance or something, but he clearly didn't have the mental fortitude (in hindsight). I personally wanted Aldridge and when I heard his name called out as being drafted by us I was ecstatic..until I heard that they traded him. Oh well.


That core always seemed to be right on the edge of taking the next step and none of them really ever did after that 06-07 season. I guess minus Deng because he just fit perfectly into whatever Thibs wanted to do. He's a true system guy and Thibs had the right system for him. BG I feel could've stepped into the Jason Terry/Jamal Crawford status of scorer, but after he left his career died so that's unfortunate for him.

This regime's biggest issue has always over valuing it's current assets and not wanting to move them for a super star. The NBA always has been and always will be a super star league. When you have chances to get them, you take it. Gar/Pax always balked.
 

The Hawk

Well-known member
Joined:
Jan 21, 2014
Posts:
18,007
Liked Posts:
1,682
Location:
Southern California
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
I think that THibs will be gone. Pax's explosion after Van G's comments said something to me. He could have done a lot of things to solidify his respect for Thibs as a coach and didn't. Instead he just fueled more rancor about the entire thing.

It is clear that Pax messes with his coaches. He also messed with Scott Skiles when Skiles tried to lay some discipline on Thomas and the big get from Detroit who complained to Pax about Skiles dissing them. Remember that one? Made Skiles apologize to them? I'm surprised given Skiles toughness that the two didn't come to blows then.

SO, no, I've never like Pax as the front office guy for the Bulls. Someone in the organization is a good talent evaluator certainly but I'm not sure it is Pax. In my opinion he and his co-star haven't delivered in the last three years when they had a chance to. They have wasted Noah, Butler, and Gibson while keeping Hinrich around. I wouldn't be surprised if Hinrich doesn't become the Bulls coach after they fire Thibs. What a fucking joy that would be for me:(
 

2323

New member
Joined:
May 26, 2013
Posts:
2,228
Liked Posts:
439
I know it's not what you're talking about but he's had no problem having a long term relationship with Kirk Hinrich.
 

Icculus

The Great and Knowledgeable
Joined:
Jul 30, 2011
Posts:
3,968
Liked Posts:
2,984
Location:
Germany
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Army Black Knights
Does hostility from management help a team succeed?

Also on that question, does hostility from management help their coach focus on the end goal?



My answer, and feel free to add your own answer. In no way does added hostility help from the management. It's bad management, and not only that, but creates a precedence that any future acquisitions will keep in mind while they are passing up on coming to Chicago.

Seems to me that John Paxson's strengths of determining skill is seriously being over-shadowed by his inability to have a long term relationship with nearly anyone, professionally. The players defend Thibs(outside of two who were simply biter and flat out sucked/have a history of animosity with other team coaches as well), coaches around the league defend Thibs, and even most* fans do as well(outside a vocal minority). From what I can see as an outsider looking in(which means I don't know what happens in that locker room, and can't defend or criticize the playing time concerns), Pax is throwing Thibs under the bus to protect his own ass. Pax is smart, knows the media and the fans will bite, knows Thibs is an easier target, and he isn't required by the NBA bylaws to talk with reporters which allows him little exposure to most accountability.

Like I said, Pax has a skill for determining talent. He doesn't have the tools that go beyond that in building and improving around the talents he puts into place. For as long as he is calling the shots, the Bulls could have the All NBA First Team, and it would not matter. He'll somehow screw that up as well.

This problem has existed since Krause ran the team. If Reinsdorf wasn't the owner, Paxson would never have even gotten the GM job much less become Team President. Jerry is almost always loyal to former players and coaches and rarely lets anyone go from the Bulls or Sox unless the guy is like Larry Himes and can't get along with anyone.
 

Bear Pride

Bears Gonna Shock the World!
Joined:
Aug 28, 2012
Posts:
10,616
Liked Posts:
3,075
Does hostility from management help a team succeed?

Also on that question, does hostility from management help their coach focus on the end goal?



My answer, and feel free to add your own answer. In no way does added hostility help from the management. It's bad management, and not only that, but creates a precedence that any future acquisitions will keep in mind while they are passing up on coming to Chicago.

Seems to me that John Paxson's strengths of determining skill is seriously being over-shadowed by his inability to have a long term relationship with nearly anyone, professionally. The players defend Thibs(outside of two who were simply biter and flat out sucked/have a history of animosity with other team coaches as well), coaches around the league defend Thibs, and even most* fans do as well(outside a vocal minority). From what I can see as an outsider looking in(which means I don't know what happens in that locker room, and can't defend or criticize the playing time concerns), Pax is throwing Thibs under the bus to protect his own ass. Pax is smart, knows the media and the fans will bite, knows Thibs is an easier target, and he isn't required by the NBA bylaws to talk with reporters which allows him little exposure to most accountability.

Like I said, Pax has a skill for determining talent. He doesn't have the tools that go beyond that in building and improving around the talents he puts into place. For as long as he is calling the shots, the Bulls could have the All NBA First Team, and it would not matter. He'll somehow screw that up as well.

Interesting thread. I'll start with the Michael Jordan era. It is extremely well known that all the players on the Bulls back then hated Jerry "Crumbs" Krause. There was a constant power struggle between the Coach, the players, and Krause.

Krause is the one that eventually ran Pippen out of town to which MJ said he'd wouldn't play w/o Scottie. Basically, if Krause wasn't the GM, the Bulls might have won a couple more championships. However, like Paxson, Krause made some good moves.

Drafting Grant and the draft day trade for Pippen turned out pretty good. Trading an extreme fan favorite player in Oakley, to get a legit C in Cartwright was a great move in the end. Even bringing in the hated Rodman was brilliant.

Oh yeah, and bringing in that soft Euro player that Pip and MJ hated in Kukoc turned out pretty good as well, right? Then getting rid of a highly popular Coach in Doug Collins didn't sit well with fans. That brought us Phil, and that was pretty good, right? Does any of this stuff sound familiar to you guys?

I think there's a lot of fans that must be too young to realize these things, and they just don't understand some of these things, imo. As far as Thib's, think of him as Collins......... now we need to find the new Phil Jackson. Hoiberg anyone? And for your point about the players and fans defending Thib's, I leave you with this.......

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
 

Bear Pride

Bears Gonna Shock the World!
Joined:
Aug 28, 2012
Posts:
10,616
Liked Posts:
3,075
I always love the Aldridge was traded argument. With the way the draft is the Bulls were never going to take Aldridge. The plan was to draft Aldridge for Portland and trade him for Tyrus Thomas. One of those silly draft day things. For whatever reason Paxson bit on Tyrus Thomas's stellar tournament play and saw some sort of potential. I always thought Tyrus had potential, but he never had the maturity to learn the game.

Kirk was the BPA at that point and insurance for Jay Williams... Paxson actually did a lot to try and get Wade in that draft, but Miami, rightfully so, wouldn't bite. I think there was always hope BG and Deng would become solid All-Stars. Deng had two years as a All-Star, but I feel that was more so Thibs getting the absolute most out of him (Though the way Deng finished the 06-07 season I thought 07-08 he'd step up and become an All-Star, instead he went backwards).

Sound's kind of similar to what the Bulls did with Scottie Pippen, huh? Actually, it's kind of exactly like that. :dunno:
 

houheffna

Ignoring Idiots
Joined:
May 6, 2009
Posts:
8,673
Liked Posts:
2,711
Ok, lets go over the coaches...

Scott Skiles...quit because team wouldn't listen, HE went to the owners as well as Ben Wallace's agent complained, stating that Skiles was losing control.

since then? He has flamed out in Milwaukee as he did in Chicago and Phoenix before that. Remember he came to Chicago apologizing to Corie Blount how he carried himself in Phoenix...Kidd still wouldn't talk to Skiles...AFTER the apology.

Vinny Del Negro...lol...anyone...ANYONE, believe he should have stayed in Chicago? Anybody? Yeah, I rest my case.

since then? Chris Paul declared to Clippers' ownership that if Del Negro stays, he goes...'nuff said. Vinny seems to be doing a good job as a studio analyst.

Now Thibodeau? How many players do you think will be heartbroken over his leaving? Not nearly as many as would have been a few years ago. Of all of the coaching issues between them and management, this might be the most egregious. However, Thibodeau might be a flame out coach, like Skiles and Collins were.

Pax and Forman have issues with Thibodeau, and at times it has gotten petty, but it would most likely be a mutual parting of the ways...and the players, for the most part, would move on. Some would move on gladly.

Lesson? Don't listen to Van Gundy, he has no idea what he is talking about. Now if people want to go over Collins and Jackson...fine, he was wrong about that also.
 

houheffna

Ignoring Idiots
Joined:
May 6, 2009
Posts:
8,673
Liked Posts:
2,711
Interesting thread. I'll start with the Michael Jordan era. It is extremely well known that all the players on the Bulls back then hated Jerry "Crumbs" Krause. There was a constant power struggle between the Coach, the players, and Krause.

The key to the dynasty continuing or failing was supposedly Jackson, not Pippen. Pippen was an afterthought. The first domino was Phil Jackson.

I post this often, I have heard Steve Rosenbloom and Terry Boers openly agree with what was written here per their inside sources with the organization...

'Jerry Reinsdorf did not break up Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls basketball dynasty. Neither did Jerry Krause, who infamously said that "organizations (not players) win championships."'......

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=1936782
 

Bear Pride

Bears Gonna Shock the World!
Joined:
Aug 28, 2012
Posts:
10,616
Liked Posts:
3,075
Ok, lets go over the coaches...

Scott Skiles...quit because team wouldn't listen, HE went to the owners as well as Ben Wallace's agent complained, stating that Skiles was losing control.

since then? He has flamed out in Milwaukee as he did in Chicago and Phoenix before that. Remember he came to Chicago apologizing to Corie Blount how he carried himself in Phoenix...Kidd still wouldn't talk to Skiles...AFTER the apology.

Vinny Del Negro...lol...anyone...ANYONE, believe he should have stayed in Chicago? Anybody? Yeah, I rest my case.

since then? Chris Paul declared to Clippers' ownership that if Del Negro stays, he goes...'nuff said. Vinny seems to be doing a good job as a studio analyst.

Now Thibodeau? How many players do you think will be heartbroken over his leaving? Not nearly as many as would have been a few years ago. Of all of the coaching issues between them and management, this might be the most egregious. However, Thibodeau might be a flame out coach, like Skiles and Collins were.

Pax and Forman have issues with Thibodeau, and at times it has gotten petty, but it would most likely be a mutual parting of the ways...and the players, for the most part, would move on. Some would move on gladly.

Lesson? Don't listen to Van Gundy, he has no idea what he is talking about. Now if people want to go over Collins and Jackson...fine, he was wrong about that also.

Exactly, I thought I was in the twilight zone. VDN? Really? Where's he coaching now? LOL. I think most of these people probably are too young like I said. The whole Collins thing was more amicable than people think.

It didn't seem so at the time cuz people really liked Collins including myself. But when's the last time Collins has bashed the Bulls for that? He hasn't, cuz the Bulls were right. They complimented Collins, but insisted that they felt that Phil could take them to the next level.

Guess what? They were right! How on Earth can ANYONE even suggest that the Bulls were wrong with that decision? What coach did they move on from that has done anything special?

The Bulls coveted Thib's, they even signed him to a pretty nice new long term contract, to which Thib's hemmed and hawed about signing. How many years is Pax supposed to wait to see Thib's body of work translate into success in the post season?

Really, the only time was Rose's MVP year, and we were eliminated in the ECF. Since then, it's been nothing special, highlighted with a lot of negative stuff. When is the "proper" time to try something different?

I wonder what would have happened if the Bulls never TRIED something different and not hired Phil Jackson? :dunno:
 

Bear Pride

Bears Gonna Shock the World!
Joined:
Aug 28, 2012
Posts:
10,616
Liked Posts:
3,075
The key to the dynasty continuing or failing was supposedly Jackson, not Pippen. Pippen was an afterthought. The first domino was Phil Jackson.

I post this often, I have heard Steve Rosenbloom and Terry Boers openly agree with what was written here per their inside sources with the organization...

'Jerry Reinsdorf did not break up Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls basketball dynasty. Neither did Jerry Krause, who infamously said that "organizations (not players) win championships."'......

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=1936782

Well, there were actually a lot of reasons. Phil didn't want to coach anymore, Krause had been trying to trade Pippen for a while, Rodman was going to LA, but Krause was still a big reason, imo. Krause was intent on proving he could win w/o those guys.

It ended up being the end of the Bulls, and ultimately the end of Krause. It's one of those things you read between the lines, but Krause was a huge part of it. And yes, at the time, MJ was not going to play w/o Phil.
 

The Hawk

Well-known member
Joined:
Jan 21, 2014
Posts:
18,007
Liked Posts:
1,682
Location:
Southern California
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
Ok, lets go over the coaches...

Scott Skiles...quit because team wouldn't listen, HE went to the owners as well as Ben Wallace's agent complained, stating that Skiles was losing control.

since then? He has flamed out in Milwaukee as he did in Chicago and Phoenix before that. Remember he came to Chicago apologizing to Corie Blount how he carried himself in Phoenix...Kidd still wouldn't talk to Skiles...AFTER the apology.

Vinny Del Negro...lol...anyone...ANYONE, believe he should have stayed in Chicago? Anybody? Yeah, I rest my case.

since then? Chris Paul declared to Clippers' ownership that if Del Negro stays, he goes...'nuff said. Vinny seems to be doing a good job as a studio analyst.

Now Thibodeau? How many players do you think will be heartbroken over his leaving? Not nearly as many as would have been a few years ago. Of all of the coaching issues between them and management, this might be the most egregious. However, Thibodeau might be a flame out coach, like Skiles and Collins were.

Pax and Forman have issues with Thibodeau, and at times it has gotten petty, but it would most likely be a mutual parting of the ways...and the players, for the most part, would move on. Some would move on gladly.

Lesson? Don't listen to Van Gundy, he has no idea what he is talking about. Now if people want to go over Collins and Jackson...fine, he was wrong about that also.


Nope. It was Pax who caused Skiles to fail and no one else. He pulled the rug right under him because of his refusal to admit he fucked up on bringing Thomas and Wallace over to the Bulls. Both of those guys were blatent asshole. As for Jason Kidd......he is an acknowledged me first player and a horseshit teammate so that doesn;t surprise me that he doesn't like Skiles who like him or not is not a guy who takes a lot of crap esepcially from assholes like Pax and Kidd.

But no, Van Gundy knows exactly what an asshole that Pax is. IF the players don't "like" Thibs then so what. But I guarantee that they respect him and if there are some that don't then they are simply jerks like Wallace, Thomas, and Kidd. ANd when Reinsdorf lets Pax fire Thibs, Thibs will be hired very very quickly and the Bulls will flounder under that putz.
 

The Hawk

Well-known member
Joined:
Jan 21, 2014
Posts:
18,007
Liked Posts:
1,682
Location:
Southern California
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
Exactly, I thought I was in the twilight zone. VDN? Really? Where's he coaching now? LOL. I think most of these people probably are too young like I said. The whole Collins thing was more amicable than people think.

It didn't seem so at the time cuz people really liked Collins including myself. But when's the last time Collins has bashed the Bulls for that? He hasn't, cuz the Bulls were right. They complimented Collins, but insisted that they felt that Phil could take them to the next level.

Guess what? They were right! How on Earth can ANYONE even suggest that the Bulls were wrong with that decision? What coach did they move on from that has done anything special?

The Bulls coveted Thib's, they even signed him to a pretty nice new long term contract, to which Thib's hemmed and hawed about signing. How many years is Pax supposed to wait to see Thib's body of work translate into success in the post season?

Really, the only time was Rose's MVP year, and we were eliminated in the ECF. Since then, it's been nothing special, highlighted with a lot of negative stuff. When is the "proper" time to try something different?

I wonder what would have happened if the Bulls never TRIED something different and not hired Phil Jackson? :dunno:


What a dumb ass comment about "where is Van G. coaching now"? Why should he? He is making major bank as a TV analyst. In fact, he is the best analyst there is. The problems with the Bulls is their front office ever since Jordan and Pippin left. Why is that? Were all of the coaches that they brought in bad ones? You seem to imply they were. Well, if that is true, then that also is on them. They are the idiots who lucked out in the draft with Rose, got some solid draft picks after that, yet refused to build a championship roster. That is 100% on Gar/Pax. As much as the Jordan and company players hated Krause, Krause did build a championship team around Jordan. What have Gar/Pax done? Failed is what they have done.
 

The Hawk

Well-known member
Joined:
Jan 21, 2014
Posts:
18,007
Liked Posts:
1,682
Location:
Southern California
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
Krause didn't run anyone out of town. Jackson stopped the Bulls dynasty, no one else. His massive ego wanted the team President job and he and Jordan derailed the ride. They certainly hated Krause but without Krause, there wouldn't have been any multiple championships.
 

Bear Pride

Bears Gonna Shock the World!
Joined:
Aug 28, 2012
Posts:
10,616
Liked Posts:
3,075
What a dumb ass comment about "where is Van G. coaching now"? Why should he? He is making major bank as a TV analyst. In fact, he is the best analyst there is. The problems with the Bulls is their front office ever since Jordan and Pippin left. Why is that? Were all of the coaches that they brought in bad ones? You seem to imply they were. Well, if that is true, then that also is on them. They are the idiots who lucked out in the draft with Rose, got some solid draft picks after that, yet refused to build a championship roster. That is 100% on Gar/Pax. As much as the Jordan and company players hated Krause, Krause did build a championship team around Jordan. What have Gar/Pax done? Failed is what they have done.

Just where the heck did I say anything about Van Gundy, or where he was, or was not coaching? :smh: VDN was who I was talking about, and the guy we were talking about. You know, the guy that actually coached the Bulls, you know, Vinny Del Negro.

55267137.jpg
 

Bear Pride

Bears Gonna Shock the World!
Joined:
Aug 28, 2012
Posts:
10,616
Liked Posts:
3,075
Krause didn't run anyone out of town. Jackson stopped the Bulls dynasty, no one else. His massive ego wanted the team President job and he and Jordan derailed the ride. They certainly hated Krause but without Krause, there wouldn't have been any multiple championships.

Yes, it was a power play by Phil and MJ against Crumbs. And my 1st post about Krause stated all the things he did well. I think you have a reading comprehension problem son. :yep:
 

houheffna

Ignoring Idiots
Joined:
May 6, 2009
Posts:
8,673
Liked Posts:
2,711
Nope. It was Pax who caused Skiles to fail and no one else. He pulled the rug right under him because of his refusal to admit he fucked up on bringing Thomas and Wallace over to the Bulls. Both of those guys were blatent asshole. As for Jason Kidd......he is an acknowledged me first player and a horseshit teammate so that doesn;t surprise me that he doesn't like Skiles who like him or not is not a guy who takes a lot of crap esepcially from assholes like Pax and Kidd.

But no, Van Gundy knows exactly what an asshole that Pax is. IF the players don't "like" Thibs then so what. But I guarantee that they respect him and if there are some that don't then they are simply jerks like Wallace, Thomas, and Kidd. ANd when Reinsdorf lets Pax fire Thibs, Thibs will be hired very very quickly and the Bulls will flounder under that putz.

You are badly misinformed. K.C. Johnson and Brian Hanley (then a Bulls' beat writer) stated while on air together that the main culprit was Ben Wallace, Paxson was not a part of it. Matter of fact, Wallace's agent (Arm Tellum I believe?) went to Reinsdorf, not Paxson, to complain about Skiles. Skiles did not want Aldridge, why? While interviewing Aldridge, Skiles sat at the table and stared at Aldridge nonstop. This bothered Aldridge and he continued to look away. After that, Skiles stated that he didn't want Aldridge because Aldridge was soft. Brian Hanley talked about that often.

You totally ignored what I said about Skiles and the Phoenix Suns...he apologized to Corie Blount, whom he coached in Phoenix. Castigate Kidd all you want to fit your narrative, what other coach did Kidd have problems with on that level? The players quit on Skiles...period.

Its obvious Van Gundy has an agenda, he is critical of the Bulls every chance he gets...
 

Scoot26

Administrator
Staff member
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
39,767
Liked Posts:
29,902
Its obvious Van Gundy has an agenda, he is critical of the Bulls every chance he gets...
It may have something to do with the 1991-1998 years.
 

Bear Pride

Bears Gonna Shock the World!
Joined:
Aug 28, 2012
Posts:
10,616
Liked Posts:
3,075
You are badly misinformed. K.C. Johnson and Brian Hanley (then a Bulls' beat writer) stated while on air together that the main culprit was Ben Wallace, Paxson was not a part of it. Matter of fact, Wallace's agent (Arm Tellum I believe?) went to Reinsdorf, not Paxson, to complain about Skiles. Skiles did not want Aldridge, why? While interviewing Aldridge, Skiles sat at the table and stared at Aldridge nonstop. This bothered Aldridge and he continued to look away. After that, Skiles stated that he didn't want Aldridge because Aldridge was soft. Brian Hanley talked about that often.

You totally ignored what I said about Skiles and the Phoenix Suns...he apologized to Corie Blount, whom he coached in Phoenix. Castigate Kidd all you want to fit your narrative, what other coach did Kidd have problems with on that level? The players quit on Skiles...period.

Its obvious Van Gundy has an agenda, he is critical of the Bulls every chance he gets...

This is what I don't get. What exactly is the agenda of Van Gundy? I know he has a past relationship with Thib's, but even Thib's agent has asked him to cut out the criticism. I don't understand why he keeps taking shots at PaxGar. I think this could actually get Thib's fired faster.... unless that's the goal. :dunno:
 

Diddy1122

I ain't your pal dickface
Joined:
Mar 30, 2009
Posts:
4,459
Liked Posts:
1,155
Location:
Chicago
All I have to say about this is that agree with this statement from Van Gundy. All this talk of firing Thibs is absolutely ridiculous.

“You know how ridiculous it is we’re even talking about a coach that’s won I think 65 percent, I think it’s the fifth-highest winning percentage all-time for guys who have coached five years or more. Do you know how silly it is?”
 

Top