Does hostility from management help a team succeed?

Crystallas

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Does hostility from management help a team succeed?

Also on that question, does hostility from management help their coach focus on the end goal?



My answer, and feel free to add your own answer. In no way does added hostility help from the management. It's bad management, and not only that, but creates a precedence that any future acquisitions will keep in mind while they are passing up on coming to Chicago.

Seems to me that John Paxson's strengths of determining skill is seriously being over-shadowed by his inability to have a long term relationship with nearly anyone, professionally. The players defend Thibs(outside of two who were simply biter and flat out sucked/have a history of animosity with other team coaches as well), coaches around the league defend Thibs, and even most* fans do as well(outside a vocal minority). From what I can see as an outsider looking in(which means I don't know what happens in that locker room, and can't defend or criticize the playing time concerns), Pax is throwing Thibs under the bus to protect his own ass. Pax is smart, knows the media and the fans will bite, knows Thibs is an easier target, and he isn't required by the NBA bylaws to talk with reporters which allows him little exposure to most accountability.

Like I said, Pax has a skill for determining talent. He doesn't have the tools that go beyond that in building and improving around the talents he puts into place. For as long as he is calling the shots, the Bulls could have the All NBA First Team, and it would not matter. He'll somehow screw that up as well.
 

Axl Rose

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ive been arguing this for a long time its a bad image for the organization. one of which that has already got tarnish on it from a previous GM that thought he was big shit

while i actually support moving on from thibs because i think its time to move on, i don't like that the perception hes that hes being ran out of town
 

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Does hostility from management help a team succeed?

Also on that question, does hostility from management help their coach focus on the end goal?



My answer, and feel free to add your own answer. In no way does added hostility help from the management. It's bad management, and not only that, but creates a precedence that any future acquisitions will keep in mind while they are passing up on coming to Chicago.

Seems to me that John Paxson's strengths of determining skill is seriously being over-shadowed by his inability to have a long term relationship with nearly anyone, professionally. The players defend Thibs(outside of two who were simply biter and flat out sucked/have a history of animosity with other team coaches as well), coaches around the league defend Thibs, and even most* fans do as well(outside a vocal minority). From what I can see as an outsider looking in(which means I don't know what happens in that locker room, and can't defend or criticize the playing time concerns), Pax is throwing Thibs under the bus to protect his own ass. Pax is smart, knows the media and the fans will bite, knows Thibs is an easier target, and he isn't required by the NBA bylaws to talk with reporters which allows him little exposure to most accountability.

Like I said, Pax has a skill for determining talent. He doesn't have the tools that go beyond that in building and improving around the talents he puts into place. For as long as he is calling the shots, the Bulls could have the All NBA First Team, and it would not matter. He'll somehow screw that up as well.
Van Gundy made a point that "this regime" has always ran its coaches out. My argument is unless Reinsdorf himself is running coaches out of town, we've had a regime change since the last coachess. Van Gundy made the point that Collins and Jackson were ran out of town. Krause made the decision that Collins wasn't going to get it done to win this team a championship, therefore canned him. Collins never did prove he could win a championship. Jackson obviously proved he could... multiple times and with two different teams multiple times.

I'll agree with you that Pax (and Gar) have a skill for determining talent, but they may be nothing but glorified scouts. If they lack the people skills, they should get out of the way for someone who does know peoples skills. I also feel like this organization is beyond Special person if they got rid of Thibs. As Van Gundy has said, Thibs will be hired within a millisecond of being fired/let go from the Bulls.
 

Choisauce

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Asinine as fuck to let Thibs go. We have a system in place that works with some up and coming talent, why ruin it
 

Scoot26

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Asinine as fuck to let Thibs go. We have a system in place that works with some up and coming talent, why ruin it
Power trips is why. It seems Paxson wants complete control of the coaching staff.

Thibs isn't the first coach he's had a problem with.

Vinny Del Negro he nearly punched in the face because Noah played too many minutes according to Paxson one game.

Scott Skiles seemed to be the only coach he hasn't had issue with, maybe they were completely on the same page together. Too bad Skiles can only take a team so far before they completely tune him out.
 

Axl Rose

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Power trips is why. It seems Paxson wants complete control of the coaching staff.

Thibs isn't the first coach he's had a problem with.

Vinny Del Negro he nearly punched in the face because Noah played too many minutes according to Paxson one game.

Scott Skiles seemed to be the only coach he hasn't had issue with, maybe they were completely on the same page together. Too bad Skiles can only take a team so far before they completely tune him out.

i really don't believe Paxson is the problem here....its Gar Forman

Pax should have never got involved and made the comments he did to JVG though

JVG got to much of a stage to shit on the Bulls and he hit him with a low blow last night about the Tyrus trade

im sure Pax wants to whip his ass after that
 

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i really don't believe Paxson is the problem here....its Gar Forman
I think they're both a problem.

Paxson did much to step away from the GM position, but he's still very much involved..There's a reason we call them GarPax.
 

Axl Rose

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I think they're both a problem.

Paxson did much to step away from the GM position, but he's still very much involved..There's a reason we call them GarPax.

possibly but ive been following this "beef" since it started and it seemed like the root was Gar

ive always felt that Pax/Jerry were supportive of Thibs
 

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possibly but ive been following this "beef" since it started and it seemed like the root was Gar

ive always felt that Pax/Jerry were supportive of Thibs
Pax's comments after the Miami game that was on ABC where Van Gundy first trashed the Bulls, Pax did nothing to defend Thibs in those comments.

The current beef itself with Thibs may be more so Gar than Pax, but Pax had a problem with Del Negro too... So there's just the history there.

Many coaches feel they should be able to run the team how they like... GarPax seem to meddle in the affairs. There is the fine line of personnel control like player trades/signings that I do feel like Ron Adams indeed overstepped his boundaries over those comments given to the media...firing him for that though? Probably a little over the line IMO.

In hindsight, its easy to see GarPax's plan and how re-signing Asik wasn't necessary. And does Korver ever do what he's doing in Atlanta with this team? Who knows, my money is he does not as he always looked completely useless if Rose was out.
 

Axl Rose

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The current beef itself with Thibs may be more so Gar than Pax, but Pax had a problem with Del Negro too... So there's just the history there.

thats is basically what im saying

i don't think Pax was really involved in it until he made those comments

which he shouldn't have made because one it was stupid to challenge JVG and two they didn't come off very well because like you said they didn't sound very supportive
 

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thats is basically what im saying

i don't think Pax was really involved in it until he made those comments which he shouldn't have made because one its was stupid challenge JVG and two they didn't come off very well because like you said they didn't sound very supportive
I suppose so. I just feel more so GarPax are both equally involved.
 

Crystallas

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It could be both. They don't show enough of their cards to make it definitely one way or the other. Pax has had altercations with coaches, and from what I see, Gar is more of Pax's puppet than anything. You would need to get rid of them both. You get rid of Gar, then you have the same thing waiting in the wings, maybe more solidified in Pax's favor. You get rid of Pax, and not Gar, you run into an issue of keeping that bad blood within the organization.

I like what you said, glorified scout. That's exactly what Paxson is.
 

Axl Rose

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I suppose so. I just feel more so GarPax are both equally involved.

hey you know me i couldn't careless about John Paxson ive called for his and Gar's job plenty of times on here

you could be right it might be both and Pax has manged to play the background while Forman did the dirty work until JVG called them out and thats why his name was never brought up in the early stages of the friction

after all thats the sole reason Pax "quit" the GM position so somebody else can take the heat...but i think the beef is more with Gar then it is with Paxson...thats just the impression ive got from this whole thing
 

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You know...perhaps we do need a new FO. That said, you do have to give them credit for bringing the Bulls out of the pits of the NBA bottom feeders 12 years ago and making them a dang near championship contender.
 

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You know, with all of the knee-jerk fans. I always defend giving someone a chance and don't really play the cop-out card of saying 'I hope I'm wrong' to cover my tracks. But I had issues with Pax when the whole VDN thing started. I liked Vinny, I didn't LOVE Vinny. A lot of that was forgotten easily when we got Thibs(even though he was my second choice, and he was someone I liked more than Vinny as well). I know a lot of people wanted D'Antoni, and boy was I against that. So all in all, I was glad that never happened. Now though, Pax to me is the obvious answer. Especially now that he has installed a few guys underneath him that are outstanding at scouting.

Fire Pax, and the morale skyrockets. Fire Thibs and a lot of the players we want to see stick around, will run out their contracts and go.
 

Crystallas

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You know...perhaps we do need a new FO. That said, you do have to give them credit for bringing the Bulls out of the pits of the NBA bottom feeders 12 years ago and making them a dang near championship contender.

The lottery system will do that too. I give them credit for drafting a few studs later, but not for bringing the team out of the sub-40 win club in the east. A good GM could draft just as well.
 

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You know, with all of the knee-jerk fans. I always defend giving someone a chance and don't really play the cop-out card of saying 'I hope I'm wrong' to cover my tracks. But I had issues with Pax when the whole VDN thing started. I liked Vinny, I didn't LOVE Vinny. A lot of that was forgotten easily when we got Thibs(even though he was my second choice, and he was someone I liked more than Vinny as well). I know a lot of people wanted D'Antoni, and boy was I against that. So all in all, I was glad that never happened. Now though, Pax to me is the obvious answer. Especially now that he has installed a few guys underneath him that are outstanding at scouting.

Fire Pax, and the morale skyrockets. Fire Thibs and a lot of the players we want to see stick around, will run out their contracts and go.
I never liked Vinny as a coach. He always felt like a filler (and he was). Thus with the whole Pax-Vinny thing I thought that was more so Vinny was Paxson's punching bag. Vinny decided to have his own mind one day and Paxson came down to set that straight.

I also am glad D'Antoni went to NYK over us.. I wanted nothing to do with him. Never saw him anything more than a glorified offensive coach who would always get beat in the playoffs. Had that Phoenix team played some damn defense, they would have won at least one title as talented as that team was. 2005 and 2007 should have never seen the Spurs in the Finals.
 

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The lottery system will do that too. I give them credit for drafting a few studs later, but not for bringing the team out of the sub-40 win club in the east. A good GM could draft just as well.
True. The Kirk, BG, Deng core wasn't really exploding with talent and any GM could've gotten similar results. It doesn't take a genius to draft Rose either. Perhaps other GMs would've passed on Noah, but then again perhaps those same GMs would've kept Aldridge.

I agree that where GarPax struck gold was with their late round picks. Taj, Butler, Mirotic, and perhaps Snell. I think Johnson and Teague were the only whiffs...and Johnson was more due to him not really being able to find his role here for whatever reason. Kind of funny thinking about how he's kind of defensive guy now.
 

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True. The Kirk, BG, Deng core wasn't really exploding with talent and any GM could've gotten similar results. It doesn't take a genius to draft Rose either. Perhaps other GMs would've passed on Noah, but then again perhaps those same GMs would've kept Aldridge.

I agree that where GarPax struck gold was with their late round picks. Taj, Butler, Mirotic, and perhaps Snell. I think Johnson and Teague were the only whiffs...and Johnson was more due to him not really being able to find his role here for whatever reason. Kind of funny thinking about how he's kind of defensive guy now.
I always love the Aldridge was traded argument. With the way the draft is the Bulls were never going to take Aldridge. The plan was to draft Aldridge for Portland and trade him for Tyrus Thomas. One of those silly draft day things. For whatever reason Paxson bit on Tyrus Thomas's stellar tournament play and saw some sort of potential. I always thought Tyrus had potential, but he never had the maturity to learn the game.

Kirk was the BPA at that point and insurance for Jay Williams... Paxson actually did a lot to try and get Wade in that draft, but Miami, rightfully so, wouldn't bite. I think there was always hope BG and Deng would become solid All-Stars. Deng had two years as a All-Star, but I feel that was more so Thibs getting the absolute most out of him (Though the way Deng finished the 06-07 season I thought 07-08 he'd step up and become an All-Star, instead he went backwards).
 

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I always love the Aldridge was traded argument. With the way the draft is the Bulls were never going to take Aldridge. The plan was to draft Aldridge for Portland and trade him for Tyrus Thomas. One of those silly draft day things. For whatever reason Paxson bit on Tyrus Thomas's stellar tournament play and saw some sort of potential. I always thought Tyrus had potential, but he never had the maturity to learn the game.
Yeah I know that was the plan. I'm just saying another GM would've just decided to draft him outright that year. Tyrus has ridiculous potential and if he put it together he could've been Larry Nance or something, but he clearly didn't have the mental fortitude (in hindsight). I personally wanted Aldridge and when I heard his name called out as being drafted by us I was ecstatic..until I heard that they traded him. Oh well.

Kirk was the BPA at that point and insurance for Jay Williams... Paxson actually did a lot to try and get Wade in that draft, but Miami, rightfully so, wouldn't bite. I think there was always hope BG and Deng would become solid All-Stars. Deng had two years as a All-Star, but I feel that was more so Thibs getting the absolute most out of him (Though the way Deng finished the 06-07 season I thought 07-08 he'd step up and become an All-Star, instead he went backwards).
That core always seemed to be right on the edge of taking the next step and none of them really ever did after that 06-07 season. I guess minus Deng because he just fit perfectly into whatever Thibs wanted to do. He's a true system guy and Thibs had the right system for him. BG I feel could've stepped into the Jason Terry/Jamal Crawford status of scorer, but after he left his career died so that's unfortunate for him.
 

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