Lineup Question

truthbedamned

truthbedamned

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I have been a Cubs fan since the age of 8 That means pretty much over 40 years just to be nice. I coached my son growing up in LL for about 8 years so I kinda pretend I know a little about baseball. Maybe not. My question is when did the Cubs start batting the pitcher number 8? In all my life the pitcher batted 9th. What caused this shift? I admit I have been following the Bears mostly during these lean years for the cubs so please I might have missed some monumental thought change.

Just curious
 

beckdawg

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truthbedamned said:
I have been a Cubs fan since the age of 8 That means pretty much over 40 years just to be nice. I coached my son growing up in LL for about 8 years so I kinda pretend I know a little about baseball. Maybe not. My question is when did the Cubs start batting the pitcher number 8? In all my life the pitcher batted 9th. What caused this shift? I admit I have been following the Bears mostly during these lean years for the cubs so please I might have missed some monumental thought change.

Just curious
Click to expand...

Someone else can probably give you better methodology than I can but I'll sum up what I know best I can. This is a Maddon thing. Before him it was a La Russa thing in STL. The concept is basically that the #1 hitter is only leading off once through the line up and after that it moves around because of walks/hits. Some have argued that your best hitter should be in the #2 hole. If you want more info about this SilenceS is the guy to talk to as like I said it's not really my forte and he happens to know a great deal about it. But if you believe that methodology then batting someone like La Stella or Alcantara in the #9 hole essentially gives you a more typical line up the second time through because you may end up with Alcantara/Fowler/Soler in an inning which is more like your typical 1-3 you would have seen the past 10-15 years.

There's also been some who have argued that if you bat someone like Alcantara 8th they will often just walk him to get to the pitcher anyways and then you may have 2 out with your lead off hitter on. So in essence, what it comes down to is sequencing your players in what some believe is a more efficient way.

Edit: forgot one thing. I think there's also an aspect of double switching to be talked about to. I seem to recall some saying that by the middle of the game you're order is quite mixed up and this allows you to double switch into a more effective line up.
 
Boobaby1

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beckdawg said:
Someone else can probably give you better methodology than I can but I'll sum up what I know best I can. This is a Maddon thing. Before him it was a La Russa thing in STL. The concept is basically that the #1 hitter is only leading off once through the line up and after that it moves around because of walks/hits. Some have argued that your best hitter should be in the #2 hole. If you want more info about this SilenceS is the guy to talk to as like I said it's not really my forte and he happens to know a great deal about it. But if you believe that methodology then batting someone like La Stella or Alcantara in the #9 hole essentially gives you a more typical line up the second time through because you may end up with Alcantara/Fowler/Soler in an inning which is more like your typical 1-3 you would have seen the past 10-15 years.

There's also been some who have argued that if you bat someone like Alcantara 8th they will often just walk him to get to the pitcher anyways and then you may have 2 out with your lead off hitter on. So in essence, what it comes down to is sequencing your players in what some believe is a more efficient way.

Edit: forgot one thing. I think there's also an aspect of double switching to be talked about to. I seem to recall some saying that by the middle of the game you're order is quite mixed up and this allows you to double switch into a more effective line up.
Click to expand...

Off topic somewhat, but speaking of coaching decisions, and one that will I am sure fuel another argument, I did watch Sunday Night Baseball on ESPN last night when they were predicting who would win the AL East. They all had said they liked the Orioles.

Specifically, Curt Schilling noted his pick because of his liking to Buck Showalter, and stated that Buck would take any 85 win team, and make them a 95 win team because he is just that good. :thinking:
 
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Simply put: It's a Maddon thing. Be prepared to see all kinds of lineups. I wouldn't be surprised to see him put Wood in the 3-6 spot some day haha
 
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Beckdawg hit most of the points that I believe is why Maddon is batting the pitcher 8th. I will add. The Cubs actually have pitchers that can handle the bat. Lester is an unknown, at least, to me. But, Wood and the rest arent automatic outs. That helps in the decision. Im sure they have some kind of formula to go along with it. The main purpose to me if the Cubs are trying to load as many OBP guys up there before Soler, Bryant(when he comes up), and Castro that they can. I didnt include Rizzo because we all know his power, but he is the best OBP guy on our team. Maddon also seems to love righty, lefty in his batting order.
 
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truthbedamned said:
I have been a Cubs fan since the age of 8 That means pretty much over 40 years just to be nice. I coached my son growing up in LL for about 8 years so I kinda pretend I know a little about baseball. Maybe not. My question is when did the Cubs start batting the pitcher number 8? In all my life the pitcher batted 9th. What caused this shift? I admit I have been following the Bears mostly during these lean years for the cubs so please I might have missed some monumental thought change.

Just curious
Click to expand...

http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/...er-this-year?p=2046924&viewfull=1#post2046924
 
CSF77

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It comes down to hitting #2 will give more AB's to a hitter than hitting #4 or #5. Both Rizzo and Soler carry a strong OBA due to their ability to take walks. So that is why they are hitting 2 and 3.

So with them moved up they need guys to drive in thus hitting a 2nd lead off type #9. This method has been used in the AL for years with a DH taking a power hitting role.

At the end of the day it should give Alcantara a long term job on the team hitting #9.
 
CSF77

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Fowler .250 OBA
Soler .320 OBA
Rizzo .462 OBA
Castro .280 OBA
Coghlan .474 OBA
Montero .200 OBA
Herrera .286 OBA
pitcher
Alcantara .273 OBA

Now Maddon has be doing the L/R/L thing as much as he can to keep teams BP's in check. Running 4 LH hitters in a row is helping the other teams pen usage. They can run a LH arm for a whole inning vs just against 1 hitter.

Maddon follows my views on how to build a line up in this sense. Ricky etc would stack a line up and all of those teams sucked.
 
CSF77

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I'll tell ya one thing. Coghlan is very under rated as a hitter. In 16 AB's 6 hits. 3 of them 2B. 2 HR's. So only 1 single. With 3 BB. At this point he is the teams top producer and him hitting #4 was really not a stretch.
 

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From the couple of games I watched batting the pitcher 8th has not helped and has cost. Game 1 specifically. Pitcher or not, the hitter gets pitched differently with more guys on base than less.
 

beardown28

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brett05 said:
From the couple of games I watched batting the pitcher 8th has not helped and has cost. Game 1 specifically. Pitcher or not, the hitter gets pitched differently with more guys on base than less.
Click to expand...

The only situation I can think of it happening (and I didn't see the whole game so I could have missed it) was when the Cubs had runners on and the pitcher came up. In that situation, there was an open base and if you have the pitcher batting 9th, the Cards would have just wallked the 8 batter to get to the pitcher batting in the 9th spot.
 

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beardown28 said:
The only situation I can think of it happening (and I didn't see the whole game so I could have missed it) was when the Cubs had runners on and the pitcher came up. In that situation, there was an open base and if you have the pitcher batting 9th, the Cards would have just wallked the 8 batter to get to the pitcher batting in the 9th spot.
Click to expand...

Again harder to pitch when there are folks on the base paths than not.
 
dabears253313

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truthbedamned said:
I have been a Cubs fan since the age of 8 That means pretty much over 40 years just to be nice. I coached my son growing up in LL for about 8 years so I kinda pretend I know a little about baseball. Maybe not. My question is when did the Cubs start batting the pitcher number 8? In all my life the pitcher batted 9th. What caused this shift? I admit I have been following the Bears mostly during these lean years for the cubs so please I might have missed some monumental thought change.

Just curious
Click to expand...

Joe Maddon said something about the 9th hitter is technically a 2nd lead off hitter and it makes Jorge Soler into the #3 hitter when the order comes back around.

I'd rather have the pitcher bat 9th.
 
Boobaby1

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brett05 said:
Again harder to pitch when there are folks on the base paths than not.
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If the other eight players are hitting, I don't really see that it matters where the pitcher bats for the Cubs.

He is supposed to pitch, not hit. :yep:
 

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Boobaby1 said:
If the other eight players are hitting, I don't really see that it matters where the pitcher bats for the Cubs.

He is supposed to pitch, not hit. :yep:
Click to expand...

So DH then. :)
 
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Parade_Rain said:
No. NL is more strategy. Love it as is.
Click to expand...

I always thought the DH was a gimmick that minimized the in-game strategy which is the one thing that makes the game so damned interesting. The only thing I can see that it has done is lengthen the careers of players that could do nothing more than hit. I'm not even sure that is a "good" thing.
 
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