My final verdict on Shane Ray

BearsFan51

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He was ejected in the second Q against Bama after smoking Sims so I would take that one out of your argument. Will have to review Georgia and Arkansas games to see how active he was pressure wise but to try and blast him for not having a sack every game of the season is unfair, it is also unfair to attempt to devalue the rest of the competition he faced and place those teams on a pedestal.

When your argument begins to crumble it's just better to build a straw man. When the straw man crumbles ala the Alabama ejection it's just better to hammer on the other two games left.
 

knoxville7

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When your argument begins to crumble it's just better to build a straw man. When the straw man crumbles ala the Alabama ejection it's just better to hammer on the other two games left.

well I could mention his lackluster performance against the SEC's worst offensive line, Tennessee :shrug:
 

Smokey Robinson

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those were the top 3 offensive line units in the SEC that he faced last year. Humphries is a nice prospect, but the florida line overall was not that great of a unit

As I mentioned before I won't use BAMA in the argument as Ray was in the backfield plenty and had a half sack before he was ejected for smoking the QB. I would argue Humphries is better than any OT on any of those 2 teams. I would also argue A&M's line was better than the two you mentioned and Ray had a nice game against them as well.

The fact is there were only 3 games that Ray didn't record at least half a sack on the entire season. He was as consistent as you could want an edge rusher to be in the SEC.
 

BearsFan51

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those were the top 3 offensive line units in the SEC that he faced last year. Humphries is a nice prospect, but the florida line overall was not that great of a unit

Here's the Alabama game quick shot gun passes and a mixture of runs away from Shane Ray on the first drive. Alabama slowed Ray down because they game planned to never give him the opportunity to get off the football. It's hard to rush the passer when you're playing contain, being run away from or are being quick passed to death to the outside.

http://youtu.be/GVaNKSjIo5Q
 

knoxville7

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you like shane ray and that's fine, you can do that. I don't like shane ray at #7, and guess what that's fine too! :shrug:
 

Bort

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Actually, no, no it isn't...Oh please, I actually remember Suggs at ASU, he was 9X as dominant in college than what we see here, get a grip.


Also, doing it once the score is out of hand has to be considered.

I am not saying he got pwned by DJ, but I am saying he got stoned for a large portion of the game, and that first sack was as much a function of Driskel being horrible as DJ getting beat off the snap.

Undersized guys will always get a few plays where they get the edge on a OT; that in and off itself isn't winning, sorry.

I stand by my assessment of the player: He is a good, fast and violent handed guy who isn't as athletic as the other edge guys, and didn't dominate good competition.


If you think that's fine for a 7th pick, go ahead and take him, but the OP's account of being astonished by Ray's first step and athleticism is hilarious. If he was astonished by Ray's explosion, did he pass out from watching Vic's get off which is easily superior?

Since you complimented me in another thread, I'm being extra patient and thorough here.

You keep talking about dominating good competition. You also brought up Vic Beasley. I like Beasley, too. But Beasley only played one game last season against a guy who projects as an NFL LT (Sean Hickey from Syracuse), and Hickey dominated that matchup by any reasonable standard. Beasley didn't get any sacks and just a few pressures.

Beasley also went up against John Theus from Georgia and Cameron Erving from FSU. Both of those guys project as NFL starters, but not at LT because they're not good enough in pass protection.

The Vic Beasley vs Sean Hickey video isn't available.

But compare the Ray vs Humphries matchup in the video you posted to the following Vic Beasley vs Cameron Erving matchup. And remember that Humphries is a much better pass blocker than Erving. Beasley gets 4 or 5 clean wins off the line resulting in several QB pressures and 2 sacks (both in the 2nd quarter), but most of the time, Erving manages to block him. With the game on the line in the 2nd half, Beasley really struggled to get pressure. Such is the life of an edge rusher. The major difference is that Humphries projects as a starting NFL LT whereas Erving is expected to move to center in the NFL because he's not good enough in pass protection.

[video=youtube;gD7r8CPqVAw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD7r8CPqVAw[/video]
 

theOHIOSTATE!

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2.30 Great play against the run
3.00 Beats Cam more cleanly than any down in the video I provided of Ray...absolutely kills him off the ball and easily wipes his hands unlike the first GIF that was posted where DJ stays engaged and actually does a SOMEWHAT decent job of washing Ray, but Driskill's worthless ass just stands there and doesn't evade a wide rush.
3.23 very nice recovery on getting caught inside on a double team regains contain and getsa batted ball...
4.44 Beasely washes hands away cleanly, he is now dominating the OL for FSU.

Looks overall much quicker and more fluid than Ray per the two tapes. He drops very nicely into coverage without tipping it off as well.


I think he had a bad 1st quarter mostly, and beyond that into the 2nd half flashes better than Ray, HANDS DOWN. Do you want me to continue to watch this vid, bc it isn't looking great for the RAY > Vic case right now tbh. Oh and the game is 3-3 while he is flashing not 28-0.
 

Bort

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3.00 Beats Cam more cleanly than any down in the video I provided of Ray...absolutely kills him off the ball and easily wipes his hands unlike the first GIF that was posted where DJ stays engaged and actually does a SOMEWHAT decent job of washing Ray, but Driskill's worthless ass just stands there and doesn't evade a wide rush..

Look again. Cam was initially confused about his assignment. He looked inside first, then realized the TE was blocking to the inside, then turned to engage Beasley. By the time he realized the TE was blocking inside of him, it was too late to engage Beasley. And then he looks back at the TE like WTF after the play.

I think he had a bad 1st quarter mostly, and beyond that into the 2nd half flashes better than Ray, HANDS DOWN. Do you want me to continue to watch this vid, bc it isn't looking great for the RAY > Vic case right now tbh. Oh and the game is 3-3 while he is flashing not 28-0.

I did mention in my post that Beasley struggled to get pressure in the 2nd half, so uh, yeah....
 

Wild_x_Card

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Actually, no, no it isn't...Oh please, I actually remember Suggs at ASU, he was 9X as dominant in college than what we see here, get a grip.


Also, doing it once the score is out of hand has to be considered.

I am not saying he got pwned by DJ, but I am saying he got stoned for a large portion of the game, and that first sack was as much a function of Driskel being horrible as DJ getting beat off the snap.

Undersized guys will always get a few plays where they get the edge on a OT; that in and off itself isn't winning, sorry.

I stand by my assessment of the player: He is a good, fast and violent handed guy who isn't as athletic as the other edge guys, and didn't dominate good competition.


If you think that's fine for a 7th pick, go ahead and take him, but the OP's account of being astonished by Ray's first step and athleticism is hilarious. If he was astonished by Ray's explosion, did he pass out from watching Vic's get off which is easily superior?

Are you intentionally dense on Monday's? No shit Suggs was more dominant. That was my point. It's rare. Yes, making 2-3 "impact plays" a game is absolutely a win for a player the only plays one side of the field. Were not talking about middle linebackers here who are mostly always around the ball.

Teams can and do scheme against edge players to limit their production.
 

theOHIOSTATE!

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Look again. Cam was initially confused about his assignment. He looked inside first, then realized the TE was blocking to the inside, then turned to engage Beasley. By the time he realized the TE was blocking inside of him, it was too late to engage Beasley. And then he looks back at the TE like WTF after the play.



I did mention in my post that Beasley struggled to get pressure in the 2nd half, so uh, yeah....

Ok, so i'll take an early lunch and watch it bc in the 1st half he was dominant aside from when FSU when 3 step and that's almost always going to neutralize an outside pass rusher to SOME extent.

Here we go:
3.55
Gets edge on OT and OT has presence of mind to wash him just as Shane gt washed on one of his "big plays"...lol. OT has hand clearly on his back and it's a borderline holding call/penalty which could easily have been thrown as it turns into a take down. That's a win and shows him AGAIN killing Cam off the ball. They should be chipping at this point.

5.16 Beats his man with an strong inside moves runs into lineman and/or gets held....nice move, more fluid than Ray and sometimes when working to the inside you're going to get held/run into trafffic, but that's still a win off the snap.

5.50 Sets good edge against O'Leary who people consider a good blocker, play goes inside for minimal gain. GJ Vic, that's a win/.*

6.28 Disguises coverage (he has back) well off the snap and jams him from coming out. QB get's killed perhaps in part because there is no outlet to back. I dunno, and am on lunch so I am not going to rewatch it.

6.55 Vic sets contain edge and stays disciplined, he then comes off of O'Leary's block easily to help clean up the play when the back cuts it back. That's good to see from someone who people consider a pure rusher.

O'Leary is battling Vic a lot in the 3rd and was considered a very solid run blocker at FSU with his somewhat squatty frame and physical play.

8.13 Beasley makes one of the most athletic yet subtle moves of both tapes, First he completely owns Nick O'Leary athletically with a jab/stutter step inside speed outside move (have no idea what the actual terminology would be) beat him in less than a second cleanly, then, and this is really superior, threatens OT's outside shoulder with speed and forces him to open enough for him to gain inside path to the QB which is EXACTLY WHAT THE OL IS TRYING TO NEVER ALLOW IN THESE SITUATIONS. Amazing play by Vic, worth 3X as much to any real scout than a garbage time sack, lol....

9.50 Vic Jumps inside and gets caught, not good. He is too small at ~230lbs to muscle back into position against legit sized/skilled OL if initially jumping wrong. Also, his power moves/bull moves are being fairly effectively neutralized late in the game. Honest scouting here.

10.39 Famous play, Vic gets caught sneaking inside. What no one told you is he kept contain the play before and the RB ran right up inside with no one there and FSU was grinding Clemson down a bit. Still not a good play and upsetting a bit considering how well overall he was playing the run before late in the 4th. He almost looked a bit worn out in the last couple series. Being undersized this will happen if you're playing virtually every down. It has to be noted though...

Ok, lets talk about half to half pass rushing and what not only we saw, BUT WHY WE SAW IT. There was certainly more pressure in the 2nd quarter than in much of the 2nd half, some of it was due to the aforementioned fatigue setting in, but the vast majority wasn't...so, why is it we say that?

The problem with people who have never scouted or played the game at a decently high level is they don't really look at the context of each play and the why's behind what they're often seeing. You talking about Vic "struggling" to get pressure in a vacuum is a perfect example of a layman watching a game and just drawing a conclusion off of what he is seeing.

Ok, smarty pants, so why didn't he get as much pressure?

1) They, as in the 1st quarter went to more quick sets and 3 step drops/shorter routes.
2) I think tbh there was a technique shift by the OT to grab and hold more, and I believe he gave up a holding call in the 2nd half. There could have been several.
3)They rolled/moved the QB away from Vic's side a few times after tasting his speedrush in the 1st half and ran some different schemes (TE involvement) at him.
4) He absolutely got a bit worn out, and that should be noted. As he shifted to a bullrush, he was absolutely less successful 1 on 1, no issue with admitting that.
5) This didn't happen that often, but they actually dropped/spied him in some pass rushing situations. Isn't always 100 percent clear to me, but it seems like they really did this a bit.

Overall Vic played a WHALE of a game and had a ton of impact on Clemson being in it into OT. If you watch that game versus FSU and Ray's game against UF and in any way, shape, or form think those are comparable performances, then I simply have nothing to say to you bc I don't think we're operating on the same level football-wise and I am hardly an expert myself.



*From NFL.com's scouting assessment of Nick:

"Uses good technique as a run blocker and will win against players his size."

At this point Vic is holding up well against Nick who is a pro-level TE as a blocker and admittedly had his moments against Vic as well. Now, is that a plus or a minus? You tell me...??
 

theOHIOSTATE!

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Are you intentionally dense on Monday's? No shit Suggs was more dominant. That was my point. It's rare. Yes, making 2-3 "impact plays" a game is absolutely a win for a player the only plays one side of the field. Were not talking about middle linebackers here who are mostly always around the ball.

Teams can and do scheme against edge players to limit their production.

I don't think beating someone off an edge in garbage time and Driskel not being aware enough to step up or throw the ball away while Ray is still being half ridden to the outside is some great impact play. That's the difference between you and me; you see a sack and automatically think that's some huge impact play that's hugely meaningful in scouting, and I am looking at it in it's totality as far as what it actually shows me about the player.

We can agree to disagree I suppose. Like I said in my scouting of Beasley, there are non-sack plays that tell me much more about a player than a garbage time sack where the QB stands there like some statue like they're doing one on one's in camp.

Still, it's a W play for Ray no doubt, and I think Ray is deserving of a high pick. I just prefer Vic at ~250lbs to Ray. That is hardly a diss.
 

NCChiFan

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For What It Is Worth, Department. McShay today called Ray the best pure pass rusher in the draft, but didn't have him in his top 7 picks... Think he has him going 8 or 9.
 

Wild_x_Card

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I don't think beating someone off an edge in garbage time and Driskel not being aware enough to step up or throw the ball away while Ray is still being half ridden to the outside is some great impact play. That's the difference between you and me; you see a sack and automatically think that's some huge impact play that's hugely meaningful in scouting, and I am looking at it in it's totality as far as what it actually shows me about the player.

We can agree to disagree I suppose. Like I said in my scouting of Beasley, there are non-sack plays that tell me much more about a player than a garbage time sack where the QB stands there like some statue like they're doing one on one's in camp.

Still, it's a W play for Ray no doubt, and I think Ray is deserving of a high pick. I just prefer Vic at ~250lbs to Ray. That is hardly a diss.
I'm speaking in general not just about ray. If you're expecting bigger impact from any of these high projected Edge guys you'll be disappointed.

Impact plays for me are as follows: sacks (obviously) TFL, pass breakups and key 3rd down stops.

Beasely has the potential to wreck a game and live in the backfield but it's only potential at this point. I don't expect him to be there at 7.
 

Svic

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Fine player.

Not worth the 7th pick.



This. I would be ok if they took him. He was so unimpressive vs teams who had good oline and I hate the words "great get off" that people use for him. Its the same thing as when a player dominated college and then gets "has great motor" tag but sucks in NFL. As he gets older he will get slower and there is nothing about his game that screams that he will be able to beat that. But if they took him. I would understand and be ok with it. I just would not choose him at 7. To many other prospects who have more ability.
 

Bort

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8.13 Beasley makes one of the most athletic yet subtle moves of both tapes, First he completely owns Nick O'Leary athletically with a jab/stutter step inside speed outside move (have no idea what the actual terminology would be) beat him in less than a second cleanly, then, and this is really superior, threatens OT's outside shoulder with speed and forces him to open enough for him to gain inside path to the QB which is EXACTLY WHAT THE OL IS TRYING TO NEVER ALLOW IN THESE SITUATIONS. Amazing play by Vic, worth 3X as much to any real scout than a garbage time sack, lol....

I agree that Beasley did a great job cleanly beating O'Leary, but, again, that's a tight end trying to block him, you'd expect an excellent edge rusher like Beasley to be able to do that. Then a guard (not an OT) comes out to try to block him in space and completely overruns him. Again, you'd expect an excellent edge rusher like Beasley to beat a guard in space, especially when the guard has all his momentum already going in one direction. Also, friendly advice: saying lol over and over again it makes you sound like a 12 year old girl.

Overall Vic played a WHALE of a game and had a ton of impact on Clemson being in it into OT. If you watch that game versus FSU and Ray's game against UF and in any way, shape, or form think those are comparable performances, then I simply have nothing to say to you bc I don't think we're operating on the same level football-wise and I am hardly an expert myself.

As I have repeated ad nauseum, they're similar if you keep in mind that Humphries is going to play LEFT TACKLE in the NFL and Cam is going to play CENTER in the NFL.

There's also no video available that I'm aware of in the one game Beasley played against someone actually projected to play left tackle in the NFL where Hickey from Syracuse owned him pretty badly, and Hickey isn't as good as Humphries. So, by your standards, since we can only judge Ray by how he played against Humphries, shouldn't the Syracuse game be the only one that counts when evaluating Beasley, where Beasley got completely owned?

Beasley and Ray are different players. Beasley is a better edge rusher, but Ray is a better interior rusher and a much more physical player. I like them both, but I think Ray is the better overall prospect.

Ironically, my first post in this thread was about how Ray's strength and physicality are my favorite qualities in him, and that post was accompanied by this gif of Ray shoving Jason Spriggs from Indiana 3 yards into the backfield and making a tackle for loss on the running back. You and a bunch of other people responded "lol Indiana sucks" and "level of competition" and "can't do that against NFL talent" etc. Nobody apparently bothered checking the fact that Spriggs is not only 6'7 305, he's also very good and widely considered among the top ten 2016 OT prospects. Of course, you didn't know that, and you insist that Ray can only be judged by his play against Humphries. If I were as condescending as you, I might say we're not operating on the same level football-wise.

kqNYdQd.gif
 

theOHIOSTATE!

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I gotta actually pretend to work now, but I have say I don't remember making fun of Spriggs a all and saying someone might be a prospect in the future, especially when he is a somewhat young ex-TE and very long OL, doesn't really effectively neutralize people's point about him being not a great comp for an NFL OT. in 2014.....even if I didn't specifically make that point.

People can assess the performances of Ray and Vic any way they choose two, and I didn't say just based on those two tapes that I was drawing conclusions. I simply contrasted the two performances, Vic's was absolutely better. If you want to argue that was due to X, Y, Z, that's a separate matter. Also, this is a poor OT class at the top as everyone knows. Even beyond that DJ was probably 285lbs in that game and very young as a OL player.....But whatever, that isn't what I was discussing in the first place and I appreciate you implicitly acknowledging that my analysis was spot on by not even trying to argue more than one point...which in fact is a relatively minor point about when Vic absolutely embarrassed an NFL bound TE and another quality lineman...

Furthermore, you are once again opting for the strawmanning that is so prevalent on here when people get pwned.

Of course, you didn't know that, and you insist that Ray can only be judged by his play against Humphries.

I didn't know what? Show me where I made a comment about Spriggs not being an OL who could potentially grow into a prospect in future yrs?

Go on....I dare you.

I never said Ray should be judged solely by his play against DJ, nor did I even suggest it; you are simply inventing strawmen here, and it's actually kind of sad to see you reduced to it when you're confronted with play by play scouting that you can't deny.

Again, show me where I said anything like that please...

These one play GIF analyses are pretty laughable to anyone who has seriously scouted in his life tbh. I know this is a free and open board and all, but yeah, no.

p.s.

As far as Nick O'leary in pass pro, lets look at what the NFL.com write up says:

"Slides feet and keeps rusher squared in pass protection"

Also, at the same height and 250lbs he actually was a good matchup against Vic in theory which is why FSU opted to use him.
 

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