2015 NBA Finals Thread (Golden State Warriors vs Cleveland Cavs)

RamiTheBullsFan said:

Sure, but (hypothetically) if LeBron put up the exact same statistics and played with the same effort/style, and the Cavs lost in 4 instead of in 6, would you still feel he would've deserved to be Finals MVP?

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If he did those things and was blown out 4 straight games? No. But if so inclined, people can look at the fact that Lebron made this series what it was. It was competitive and entertaining because one dude fought for practically his whole team. That said, I have no problem with giving the MVP to Iguodala. He deserved it based on the work he put in. Wish one of the Splash Brothers had played at a higher level though.

RoseMVP1 said:

And since it hasn't been brought up yet, that I've seen, I just want to throw it out there that the way lebron treated Blatt was ridiculous. It's bad for the game. The man won 16 championships in like 20 years or something like that in Europe and lebron rotuntly treated him like shit.

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Yeah, you threw that out there about 20 minutes after Mark Stein threw it out there. lol...

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/3896/lebrons-handling-of-blatt-unbecoming

houheffna said:

Yeah, you threw that out there about 20 minutes after Mark Stein threw it out there. lol...

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/3896/lebrons-handling-of-blatt-unbecoming

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this is why i was never scared of cavs hiring thibs

him and Bron would never ever get along

only guy i think that could reign Bron in at this point would be pjax

Yes, Lebron had ridiculous numbers. Yes, he led both teams in points, rebounds, and assists, the only player to ever do so in Finals history. He also took more shots than anyone, played more minutes than anyone, and had the ball in his hands on basically 95% of his team's possessions after game 1. His offensive efficiency was absolute garbage, and that's putting it nicely. He didn't shoot worse in any month or series before the Finals (39.8%). In the most important game of the season (Game 4) he put up his worst performance of the year going 7-22 for 20 points with a +/- of -14 and his team was blown out of the gym by 21 points. He did have 12 rebounds and 8 assists but it would have been the saddest triple double ever if he accomplished it.

In the final game of the season, he went 13-33 from the field, 4-8 from the line, with 6 TO's and a +/- of -2. He also gave up in the final 2 minutes (There's simply no denying that. It was blatantly obvious to anyone with one functioning eye.) and if not for the tenacity of his teammates (in particular Dellavedova & Thompson), the Cavs would've lost by 20+ but instead made it interesting until the end. On top of all that, we've learned that he basically called his own plays, timeouts, and substitutions all series.

Plain and simple, Lebron tried to do it all because he didn't fully trust his teammates or his coach. The fact that the Cavs won 2 games I feel is more due to the fact that the Warriors didn't game plan for Dellavedova and went away from how they had won all year, playing small and fast. Once they went back to that, the series was never in doubt. Now, I don't completely discredit Lebron for what he did in helping get those 2 wins, but the fact that he tried to do it all (even coaching which I wasn't shocked by at all), is what hindered his team in this series. Gaudy numbers aside, that to me is the reason why he didn't deserve the MVP.

What Iggy did in this series is being woefully marginalized by some of you on here. He had not started a single game IN THE SEASON until game 4 of the NBA Finals, the most important game of the series. He was 8-15 with 4 big 3 pointers for 22 points with 8 rebounds and a +15, while harassing Lebron into his worst performance of the season. In the subsequent games that followed he had 14pts, 7asts, 8rebs, 3 stls, +14 and 25pts, 5asts, 5rebs, 2stls, +15. In the entire series, Iguodala never had a negative +/- score. He DID defend James into his worst shooting of the entire playoffs. He DID defend James into his worst offensive efficiency of the season. He wasn't the statistical leader for both teams, but he was the most consistent player on both sides of the court for both teams. That's why he deserved it. That's why he won it.

Diddy1122 said:

Plain and simple, Lebron tried to do it all because he didn't fully trust his teammates or his coach. The fact that the Cavs won 2 games I feel is more due to the fact that the Warriors didn't game plan for Dellavedova and went away from how they had won all year, playing small and fast. Once they went back to that, the series was never in doubt. Now, I don't completely discredit Lebron for what he did in helping get those 2 wins, but the fact that he tried to do it all (even coaching which I wasn't shocked by at all), is what hindered his team in this series. Gaudy numbers aside, that to me is the reason why he didn't deserve the MVP.

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Another cheap shot at the best player on the planet. Who on that team should Lebron have trusted? I have no problem with Iggy getting Playoff MVP...but once again, the best player on the floor...by far...was Lebron James. The LAST player that you can accuse of playing selfishly is James. Given the talent around him...or lack thereof...what you just stated...makes NO sense.

houheffna said:

Another cheap shot at the best player on the planet. Who on that team should Lebron have trusted? I have no problem with Iggy getting Playoff MVP...but once again, the best player on the floor...by far...was Lebron James. The LAST player that you can accuse of playing selfishly is James. Given the talent around him...or lack thereof...what you just stated...makes NO sense.

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Are you trying to say JR Smith shouldn't have been trusted?!

FirstTimer said:

Are you trying to say JR Smith shouldn't have been trusted?!

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I mean...he put the team on his back at the end of game six

http://streamable.com/5gaz

Without LeBron James on the floor this series.
JR Smith 0/9 FG
Delly 0/7 FG
J. Jones 0/3 FG
Shumpert 0/2 FG
Total 0/21 FG

You could argue different reasons for why those stats are a reality(e.g. sample size). But to me, it seems painfully obvious that there was no real offensive threat on the team to give those guys the space they needed. Save JR Smith sporadically, none of those guy are adequate at creating their own offense, and clearly Golden State did a job good job on defense(give them credit). They missed LeBron's offense, and more specifically, they missed LeBron's passing ability.

Remember, without LeBron on that team, they not only didn't have a leading offensive threat, they also didn't have a PG. Dellavedova played the one but he is pretty terrible as a distributor.

Could LeBron have shot better? Yea probably. Or he could have been more aggressive with his drives or tried to power his way to the post to get easier shots. But he still did that a lot, so I think considering that argument would be a bit nitpicky.

When you shoot over 30 times a game as the only guy who consistently can give the team 20+ points a game(i.e. the only significant offensive threat), it's pretty difficult to stay efficient. Especially when you're not an A+ shooter. But that's what he needed to do, otherwise they were sunk. I think that's hard to argue when you watch anyone else try to do anything on their own offensively. As for LeBron trying to get the other guys involved besides himself, I obviously don't need to address that.

If we're going by the textbook definition of "Most Valuable Player" in this series, it's LeBron. I dont see how that team doesn't lose by at least 15 every game without him, or Kyrie,etc. But certainly Iguodala was incredibly valuable to the Warriors as a defensive menace and a cog on offense that can play off the defensive attention given to Curry or Thompson. Speaking of Thompson, he needs to learn how to not disappear when his shot isn't falling. I feel like that was a big reason why this was a series.

Delly can certainly be a distributor on them lobs though

CODE_BLUE56 said:

Without LeBron James on the floor this series.
JR Smith 0/9 FG
Delly 0/7 FG
J. Jones 0/3 FG
Shumpert 0/2 FG
Total 0/21 FG

You could argue different reasons for why those stats are a reality(e.g. sample size). But to me, it seems painfully obvious that there was no real offensive threat on the team to give those guys the space they needed. Save JR Smith sporadically, none of those guy are adequate at creating their own offense, and clearly Golden State did a job good job on defense(give them credit). They missed LeBron's offense, and more specifically, they missed LeBron's passing ability.

Remember, without LeBron on that team, they not only didn't have a leading offensive threat, they also didn't have a PG. Dellavedova played the one but he is pretty terrible as a distributor.

Could LeBron have shot better? Yea probably. Or he could have been more aggressive with his drives or tried to power his way to the post to get easier shots. But he still did that a lot, so I think considering that argument would be a bit nitpicky.

When you shoot over 30 times a game as the only guy who consistently can give the team 20+ points a game(i.e. the only significant offensive threat), it's pretty difficult to stay efficient. Especially when you're not an A+ shooter. But that's what he needed to do, otherwise they were sunk. I think that's hard to argue when you watch anyone else try to do anything on their own offensively. As for LeBron trying to get the other guys involved besides himself, I obviously don't need to address that.

If we're going by the textbook definition of "Most Valuable Player" in this series, it's LeBron. I dont see how that team doesn't lose by at least 15 every game without him, or Kyrie,etc. But certainly Iguodala was incredibly valuable to the Warriors as a defensive menace and a cog on offense that can play off the defensive attention given to Curry or Thompson. Speaking of Thompson, he needs to learn how to not disappear when his shot isn't falling. I feel like that was a big reason why this was a series.

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Depends on your definition of MVP. I'm pretty sure it's the MVP to the series, not to the player's team specifically. There's a subtle difference.

Winning the series is the most important thing obviously, soooo...

Imo, without Iggy (or Curry arguable), the Warriors quite possible lose (because Lebron is so good). On the flip side, without Lebron, the Cavs still lose.

houheffna said:

Another cheap shot at the best player on the planet. Who on that team should Lebron have trusted? I have no problem with Iggy getting Playoff MVP...but once again, the best player on the floor...by far...was Lebron James. The LAST player that you can accuse of playing selfishly is James. Given the talent around him...or lack thereof...what you just stated...makes NO sense.

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LOL a cheap shot, really?? It's not a cheap shot. I just refuse to blindly praise and reward the guy for how he played in the series when considering everything that went on over the course of it. When you average over 30 shots a game, and you have his talent, it's a given you will be scoring upwards of 40 points per game. That doesn't amaze me in the least. He was the best player on the floor who had the worst offensive efficiency of anyone. I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air. It was obvious that Lebron walking the ball up into ISO 99% of the time did not help his team win. That's the point I'm making.

As for not playing selfishly, he repeatedly undermined his own head coach the entire series! Explain to me how that isn't playing selfishly. He ran almost no plays that Blatt called. I'm not making this stuff up. He wanted to be the coach and it didn't work. And believe me, I'm not the only one who saw this. You could hear Van Gundy and Jackson talk about it in almost every game. Hell, Jackson said it repeatedly during the course of game 6. Most everyone thought it was because Blatt didn't know what he was doing. As it turns it, he may have known or had ideas on how to help the team but Lebron wasn't going to let him coach them regardless. That's the definition of being selfish. That hurt them more than helped them and there should be no "It's ok because who did he really have that he could trust?" talk to justify it.

Diddy1122 said:

LOL a cheap shot, really?? It's not a cheap shot. I just refuse to blindly praise and reward the guy for how he played in the series when considering everything that went on over the course of it. When you average over 30 shots a game, and you have his talent, it's a given you will be scoring upwards of 40 points per game. That doesn't amaze me in the least. He was the best player on the floor who had the worst offensive efficiency of anyone. I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air. It was obvious that Lebron walking the ball up into ISO 99% of the time did not help his team win. That's the point I'm making.

As for not playing selfishly, he repeatedly undermined his own head coach the entire series! Explain to me how that isn't playing selfishly. He ran almost no plays that Blatt called. I'm not making this stuff up. He wanted to be the coach and it didn't work. And believe me, I'm not the only one who saw this. You could hear Van Gundy and Jackson talk about it in almost every game. Hell, Jackson said it repeatedly during the course of game 6. Most everyone thought it was because Blatt didn't know what he was doing. As it turns it, he may have known or had ideas on how to help the team but Lebron wasn't going to let him coach them regardless. That's the definition of being selfish. That hurt them more than helped them and there should be no "It's ok because who did he really have that he could trust?" talk to justify it.

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That is a very petty argument...he was selfish because his coach was in over his head? Really?

He was insubordinate...not selfish. He constantly undermined the coach. It was inexcusable.

Doesn't mean he wasn't actually right in the moves he sought to make, it meant that he lacked tact and was disrespectful. Its a part of a culture that allows star players to be petulant. Lebron not letting Blatt make certain moves didn't hurt the team. You talk as if Blatt is Red Auerbach for crying out loud, as if Blatt had these great solutions on how to beat the superior team and Lebron, who most say is one of the smartest, if not the smartest star in the league....stopped him. I think Lebron is smarter than that, and he deserves more credit.

What cost the team is Love and Irving being hurt. Lebron, with those guys, could have won that series if HE was coaching the team. NO coach being heard, or ignored, could have won that series. You cannot depend on Shumpert and J.R. Smith to win a title. Those are bummy players. Not meant to be core players on a title team. You can't win a championship with one core player.

I wish you'd put this much energy into lambasting selfish players that wear the Bulls' uniform. Knowing passed more efficiently than Lebron did. If those guys hit half the shots he got them...he easily averages 12+ assists per game.

By the way, its the NBA...that's how it goes. If you don't like the coach...and you are a superstar...the coach loses. Magic got a coach fired...Jordan sat by and watched while Collins was fired...etc.

But lets all pretend that ignoring incompetent coaching is something new. Lets thank Lebron for ushering in the "Selfish Era" in the NBA.

houheffna said:

Yeah, you threw that out there about 20 minutes after Mark Stein threw it out there. lol...

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/3896/lebrons-handling-of-blatt-unbecoming

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So what? Not like I'm just saying that because he did. We all saw what a douche he was in the Bulls cavs series.

RoseMVP1 said:

So what? Not like I'm just saying that because he did. We all saw what a douche he was in the Bulls cavs series.

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Yeah, Yeah, Yeah...and you'd rather have Derrick Rose on your team than him and he's what's bad about the league and yada, yada, yada...

While a lot of the comparison to Jordan is unwarranted, lot of the criticism LeBron gets is unwarranted as well. So his teams are 2-4 in the Finals and Jordan's teams are 6-0. The guy made it to 5 straight NBA Finals (two more than Jordan). And to get there 6 times is pretty damn good. Just because you can't live up to the "Jordan standard", so to speak, doesn't mean you are a failure as a basketball player. That is pretty damn impressive.

Sure, he's no Jordan. But he's still pretty damn impressive.

houheffna said:

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah...and you'd rather have Derrick Rose on your team than him and he's what's bad about the league and yada, yada, yada...

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2-4, a Ray Allen bailout away from 1-5

i had fell asleep watching that game 6 vs the Spurs and i just randomly woke up in the closing minutes and looked at the score and said "lol LeBron did it again" then all of a sudden Ray Allen hits a 3 and its tied....crazy moment

glad the basketball gods woke me up to witness that (even though it was the heat)

RoseMVP1 said:

2-4, a Ray Allen bailout away from 1-5

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You talking about Lebron...or Wilt? I guess both of them are garbage...based on their Finals record. C'mon son!

If it wasn't for LeBron, his Finals record would be 2-3 (because he pushed CLE past CHI and ATL) instead of 2-4.

Is it really a worse accomplishment to get to the Finals and lose than it is to only make it to the first, second, or Conference Finals?