The Off and Def Rating Thread

Scoot26 · Nov 10, 2015

You may remember my thread last year concerning this subject

Offensive Rating and Defensive Rating is by no means 100% proof in measuring if a team is going to the Finals or not, but it is a good indicator in who is going to make the Finals and who likely is not going to make the Finals. The old adage is you need a Top 10 offense and Top 10 defense to win it all.

Last year the #2 O and #1 D won it all. Every once in awhile someone slips through the cracks, but in most years the Top 10 holds true. The Finalist is less likely to have the requirements in both categories (last year Cleveland was #3 in O and #18 in D), but many times often still a good indicator.

So this season, I'll periodically update what the league it at here and we'll follow through this season to see the results.

After the first few weeks of the season, here's how things stack up:

Bold = Top 10 in both categories
Red = Chicago Bulls

Team	ORtg	Rank	DRtg	Rank
Golden State Warriors	113.4	1	95.9	3
Oklahoma City Thunder	110.8	2	105.5	19
Cleveland Cavaliers	107.4	3	97.6	5
Atlanta Hawks	106.7	4	102.7	16
Portland Trail Blazers	106.2	7	105.2	18
Los Angeles Clippers	106.2	6	102.2	15
Charlotte Hornets	106.2	5	105.5	20
San Antonio Spurs	105.2	8	94.4	2
Milwaukee Bucks	105.0	9	108.6	26
Los Angeles Lakers	103.6	11	109.8	29
New York Knicks	103.6	10	103.9	17
Miami Heat	103.2	12	96.6	4
Toronto Raptors	102.9	13	98.9	9
Houston Rockets	102.5	14	108.2	24
Utah Jazz	102.0	15	92.8	1
New Orleans Pelicans	101.8	17	113.6	30
Detroit Pistons	101.8	16	98.9	10
Minnesota Timberwolves	101.5	18	98.2	7
Boston Celtics	101.3	19	98.0	6
Sacramento Kings	101.1	20	108.7	27
Denver Nuggets	101.0	21	105.8	22
Dallas Mavericks	100.9	22	101.9	14
Phoenix Suns	100.8	23	100.9	13
Washington Wizards	100.3	25	105.7	21
Chicago Bulls	100.3	24	98.7	8
Orlando Magic	100.2	26	100.8	12
Indiana Pacers	99.3	27	100.7	11
Memphis Grizzlies	96.8	28	107.1	23
Brooklyn Nets	95.8	29	108.9	28
Philadelphia 76ers	94.6	30	108.3	25

clonetrooper264 · Nov 10, 2015

Hoiball is secretly a defense first scheme.

Scoot26 · Nov 10, 2015

clonetrooper264 said:
Hoiball is secretly a defense first scheme.

Really hilariously actually. Bulls weren't even that good at D at any point last season.

knoxville7 · Nov 10, 2015

Scoot26 said:
Really hilariously actually. Bulls weren't even that good at D at any point last season.

nope, yet they were much better offensively last year under thibs....go figure

Naptastic · Nov 10, 2015

Do these numbers seem high? 92ppg for best defense.

Scoot26 · Nov 10, 2015

Naptastic said:
Do these numbers seem high? 92ppg for best defense.

Last years #1 defensive rated team was at 101.4.

RamiTheBullsFan · Nov 10, 2015

Those stats in the OP are over 8 days old, and were only 3 games into the regular season.

Bulls are now 23rd in offrat and 12th in defrat

The only 4 teams in the top 10 in both categories as of Sunday night were GS, SA, Cle, and Atl.

Scoot26 · Nov 11, 2015

RamiTheBullsFan said:
Those stats in the OP are over 8 days old, and were only 3 games into the regular season.

Bulls are now 23rd in offrat and 12th in defrat

The only 4 teams in the top 10 in both categories as of Sunday night were GS, SA, Cle, and Atl.

Um, I got my stats from basketball-reference.com.

Today the Bulls are 25th in O rating and 6th in D.

So I'm curious to know what your source is.

clonetrooper264 · Nov 11, 2015

Why is Hoiball so horrible offensively? IT'S ALL A TRICK! THIBS WAS AN OFFENSIVE GENIUS. HOIBERG IS A DEFENSIVE MASTER!

Naptastic · Nov 11, 2015

Scoot26 said:
Um, I got my stats from basketball-reference.com.

Today the Bulls are 25th in O rating and 6th in D.

So I'm curious to know what your source is.

At least our attendance is high. I'm sure Reinsdorf is a happy camper.

clonetrooper264 · Nov 11, 2015

Naptastic said:
At least our attendance is high. I'm sure Reinsdorf is a happy camper.

All about them $$$

Scoot26 · Nov 11, 2015

Naptastic said:
At least our attendance is high. I'm sure Reinsdorf is a happy camper.

6th is low. They're usually #1.

That could simply be because of games played at this point though.

Axl Rose · Nov 11, 2015

still allot of thibs seeping through in the offense...i'm really surprised our defense is that good though i mean we just gave up 130 points the other night you'd think that would hurt us a bit

Scoot26 · Nov 11, 2015

AirGordon7 said:
still allot of thibs seeping through in the offense...i'm really surprised our defense is that good though i mean we just gave up 130 points the other night you'd think that would hurt us a bit

That's something I see falling as the season goes on.

They are keeping teams pretty much below 100 ppg this season though.

I just wonder what they would be without that Charlotte game.

As far as Thibs, you may see that for awhile this season. If it hasn't rubbed off by January, we're in trouble though.

czman · Nov 11, 2015

You can't chance the culture of a team and not the players overnight. The Bulls still have a room full of Tibs guys. I fully expect this season to be a disappointment. I am not all that interested in this team this season. I was never a big fan of Tibs. Just about every comment I made about him years ago is what everyone was saying about him when he was fired. The man had his flaws, and they were real and deep.

You just can't up and fire and think the team will suddenly change the identity. The Bulls went about this off-season all wrong. The East is weak and they will walk into the playoffs. They won't be better than last season. Firing Tibs meant they had to move at least 3 of the following guys: Gibson, Noah, Hinrich, Gasol, Butler, Dunleavy or Snell.

Trying to fit square pegs in triangle holes rarely works. This team is a tibs team running an offense they don't have the skill set or inclination to run.

Scoot26 · Nov 12, 2015

czman said:
You can't chance the culture of a team and not the players overnight. The Bulls still have a room full of Tibs guys. I fully expect this season to be a disappointment. I am not all that interested in this team this season. I was never a big fan of Tibs. Just about every comment I made about him years ago is what everyone was saying about him when he was fired. The man had his flaws, and they were real and deep.

You just can't up and fire and think the team will suddenly change the identity. The Bulls went about this off-season all wrong. The East is weak and they will walk into the playoffs. They won't be better than last season. Firing Tibs meant they had to move at least 3 of the following guys: Gibson, Noah, Hinrich, Gasol, Butler, Dunleavy or Snell.

Trying to fit square pegs in triangle holes rarely works. This team is a tibs team running an offense they don't have the skill set or inclination to run.

Well 3 of those guys likely are on their way out by the end of next season as Noah expires after this season and Gibson and Gasol expire after next season. Hinrich is also out after this season, but he's already not doing anything, so that doesn't matter. Dunleavy signed a 3 year deal and Butler is signed here long term, so I think those guys stay.. Snell has another year on his rookie deal, who knows with him.

I guess what do you think the Bulls need to do to change at this point? Things seem kinda limited.. Hard to build through the draft when you are still making the playoffs, and trades and FA have never been the Bulls forte.

The Hawk · Nov 12, 2015

Scoot26 said:
Well 3 of those guys likely are on their way out by the end of next season as Noah expires after this season and Gibson and Gasol expire after next season. Hinrich is also out after this season, but he's already not doing anything, so that doesn't matter. Dunleavy signed a 3 year deal and Butler is signed here long term, so I think those guys stay.. Snell has another year on his rookie deal, who knows with him.

I guess what do you think the Bulls need to do to change at this point? Things seem kinda limited.. Hard to build through the draft when you are still making the playoffs, and trades and FA have never been the Bulls forte.

Maybe Forte can play point guard

czman · Nov 12, 2015

Scoot26 said:
Well 3 of those guys likely are on their way out by the end of next season as Noah expires after this season and Gibson and Gasol expire after next season. Hinrich is also out after this season, but he's already not doing anything, so that doesn't matter. Dunleavy signed a 3 year deal and Butler is signed here long term, so I think those guys stay.. Snell has another year on his rookie deal, who knows with him.

I guess what do you think the Bulls need to do to change at this point? Things seem kinda limited.. Hard to build through the draft when you are still making the playoffs, and trades and FA have never been the Bulls forte.

I guess I just don't think Tibs should have been fired unless the Bulls were willing to make multiple trades and completely reform the roster. I suspect that management thought that the team was an offensive coach away. I don't think that was true. I think that team out performed the individual talent because they had a team of players who fit a system and a great system coach. The players they have though are going to depreciate in value as continue to play in a new system not fit to maximize their talent.

I would like to have seen Tibs get one more year and for the Bulls to have made a move for Batun (who did get traded) or Gay. I think having 5 quality starters would have been the test if Tibs could bring in a ring. He always had one weak link. One more year would also have brought the team to the expiring contracts and ability to move a few guys in their last year.

As far as Rose, I think he is gone. I have thought that since his brother spoke out though. I am not sure exactly how this will play out. A rebuild will be in order. It would have been easier to start that this off-season by moving Noah, Gibson, and Hinrich. They are not in the long term plans for this team and will have little trade value at the deadline.

The one saving grace is they are in the East. They have enough talent to win ~50 games. I suspect that the championship window has slammed shut. I just hope the Bulls realize and start the rebuild before they spend money unwisely and end up perpetually mediocre.

Diddy1122 · Nov 12, 2015

czman said:
You can't chance the culture of a team and not the players overnight. The Bulls still have a room full of Tibs guys. I fully expect this season to be a disappointment. I am not all that interested in this team this season. I was never a big fan of Tibs. Just about every comment I made about him years ago is what everyone was saying about him when he was fired. The man had his flaws, and they were real and deep.

You just can't up and fire and think the team will suddenly change the identity. The Bulls went about this off-season all wrong. The East is weak and they will walk into the playoffs. They won't be better than last season. Firing Tibs meant they had to move at least 3 of the following guys: Gibson, Noah, Hinrich, Gasol, Butler, Dunleavy or Snell.

Trying to fit square pegs in triangle holes rarely works. This team is a tibs team running an offense they don't have the skill set or inclination to run.

I disagree with most of this especially the players you listed. Other than Gibson and Hinrich, I would not consider any other player a "Thibs guy". Noah and him went at it a lot, even stating to one another that if they weren't bound together by the same team, they would hate each other. Wennington even stated that Noah was purposely avoiding the Berto Center in the summer so he didn't have to go thru a grueling Thibs workout every day. Gasol is a vet, whom while he respects Thibs, I don't feel he had this burning loyalty to him. Gasol just wants to win 1 more title before he retires. Dunleavy I feel the same way about as I do Gasol. And Snell, really?? C'mon now. Snell was constantly looking over his shoulder anytime he made a mistake last year. You can see on the court that he feels a lot more confident and free now that Thibs is gone.

The struggles are because it's an entirely new offensive system that is a complete 180 from what was run last year. The team played the entire pre-season without their starting PG who is still working himself back into playing shape. Dunleavy, who would destroy teams with his shooting in this offense, hasn't even taken the court yet. This is not a Thibs team by any stretch of the imagination. The skill sets are definitely there you just have to give it time to grow a little. We haven't even played 10 games yet and most everyone is panicking now.

Axl Rose · Nov 12, 2015

i wouldn't say im panicking but i can't say i like what ive seen. its more of last year thus far

i think it amounts to this team being soft. i guess thats what happens when 2 of your top players (Rose & Gasol) are soft and the guy that brought the edge every night (Noah) is a Sanford and Son level player

yeah its still early but at this point its up to the Bulls to make a believer out of me

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