IGT: Heat vs BULLS Monday January 25th @ 7:00pm on CSN

Who Wins?

  • Definitely NOT the Bulls

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  • Luol Dengerous

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  • Derrick Rose sucks

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  • Less Wins For Simmons!

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  • Total voters
    1

Scoot26

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The bottom line is, as far as ideal moves the benefit Thibs, it was a net negative. Heck, firing Ron Adams itself destroys the argument that the FO tried to help him.
Well I think by that time, they weren't trying to help him as much. In the beginning they did though. Whatever happened during 2012-13 caused a lot of friction between the coaching staff and front office.
 

Crystallas

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Well I think by that time, they weren't trying to help him as much. In the beginning they did though. Whatever happened during 2012-13 caused a lot of friction between the coaching staff and front office.

It's only after that it became clear to anyone with half a brain. But it was happening before that. Something about Pax needing to have total control or he throws everyone under the bus.
 

Enasic

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:aj:

TO THE MAX you say. LMAO. Yeah, no. He had some good pieces, and he also had a front office that made moves that contradicted him. And when I say contradicted, I don't mean going out and only getting defensive players. Only a 12 year old with the attention span of a gnat would play to extremes by insisting he ONLY fit with defensive players. Defense first does NOT MEAN defense ONLY. When you're best offensive player is the PG, and NOT just the PG, but a slasher, you really aren't getting help. When your second best player is broken and pretty much washed up, but somehow you make him into an all-star, that is not because you inherited the "max" of all opportunities. Just full out horseshit.

When you're best assistant gets fired, when you bring in SOFT players(no, again, let's not do this gnat thing and play extremes claiming they have to be defense only), what do you expect. Max my ass.

I never said all defensive players was a good thing. Of course it's not. But as a defensive coach, Thibs had a stacked defensive roster. How can you say Noah, Asik, Taj, Deng, Brewer, Rose, Bogans, Thomas didn't fit Thibs? Hell, even Boozer fit him because Thibs liked to work his offense from the inside out and Booz had good enough post ability to do that. He had one of the best floor spacers in Korver who he was reluctant to even play a lot of the times. Why? Because Thibs was reluctant to play anyone who wasn't a defensive grinder. Which is why he elected to play Taj down the stretch over Boozer a lot of the times.

The Ron Adams fiasco is an entirely different subject. As I said, that roster fit Thibs a LOT more than how this roster fits Fred. Again, not debatable. And that was the main point I was making.
 

Axl Rose

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:aj:

TO THE MAX you say. LMAO. Yeah, no. He had some good pieces, and he also had a front office that made moves that contradicted him. And when I say contradicted, I don't mean going out and only getting defensive players. Only a 12 year old with the attention span of a gnat would play to extremes by insisting he ONLY fit with defensive players. Defense first does NOT MEAN defense ONLY. When you're best offensive player is the PG, and NOT just the PG, but a slasher, you really aren't getting help. When your second best player is broken and pretty much washed up, but somehow you make him into an all-star, that is not because you inherited the "max" of all opportunities. Just full out horseshit.

When you're best assistant gets fired, when you bring in SOFT players(no, again, let's not do this gnat thing and play extremes claiming they have to be defense only), what do you expect. Max my ass.

i never said he was given the most perfect team of all time but that he had a team with players that fit what he wanted to do defensively which is his calling card

Deng was only 25 which is a bit young to be called washed up. he did have some injuries and looked like a bust signing prior to thibs coming on but that was due to Vinny being a boob and not knowing how to use Deng

after Rose tore his ACL you have a point about them not helping Thibs but initially Thibs had a roster that was far better suited to him than what Hoiberg has...Hoiberg has basically taken over Thibs scraps
 

clonetrooper264

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Reluctant to play Korver? My memory disagrees. Korver played in crunch time quite often (save for the offense/defense switches).
 

Crystallas

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I never said all defensive players was a good thing. Of course it's not. But as a defensive coach, Thibs had a stacked defensive roster. How can you say Noah, Asik, Taj, Deng, Brewer, Rose, Bogans, Thomas didn't fit Thibs?
Before we move the goalposts. Here is the claim I rejected "he came to a team that had his pieces already". And then you said, the "max" players. Secondly, you say you don't think all-defensive players are a good thing, then continue to praise players for their defensive ability, as if that is the only thing a defensive first coach does, ignoring the "first" part of how Thibs is described, because it is not defense only.

My prior statement stands.
 

Crystallas

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Hoiberg has basically taken over Thibs scraps

This is changing the narrative a LOT, I would say. And before the whole argument about Firing Thibs to bring Hoiberg in was about how Mark Jackson was fired to bring in Steve Kerr. And that sentiment, including by yourself was echoed as a perfect reason to why Hoiberg would make this team better. Because the FO started drafting/signing offensive first players and that Thibs was hindering them. That is why Fred was the answer, because he fit the current team. Or do we all have short term memories now?
 

Axl Rose

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Before we move the goalposts. Here is the claim I rejected "he came to a team that had his pieces already". And then you said, the "max" players. Secondly, you say you don't think all-defensive players are a good thing, then continue to praise players for their defensive ability, as if that is the only thing a defensive first coach does, ignoring the "first" part of how Thibs is described, because it is not defense only.

My prior statement stands.

don't take "he had his pieces already" as "he was given a championship team" what i meant by that was that he came to a team with players that fit what he wanted to do...yes they lacked scoring and needed to address that

which never got done or atleast they had a bad attempt at it with Rip Hamilton
 

Scoot26

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Reluctant to play Korver? My memory disagrees. Korver played in crunch time quite often (save for the offense/defense switches).
Korver only didnt play come playoff time when teams knew how to shut him down.
 

clonetrooper264

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don't take "he had his pieces already" as "he was given a championship team" what i meant by that was that he came to a team with players that fit what he wanted to do...yes they lacked scoring and needed to address that

which never got done or atleast they had a bad attempt at it with Rip Hamilton
Honestly, Rip could've worked well if he could've stayed on the floor...but that never happened.
 

Enasic

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Before we move the goalposts. Here is the claim I rejected "he came to a team that had his pieces already". And then you said, the "max" players. Secondly, you say you don't think all-defensive players are a good thing, then continue to praise players for their defensive ability, as if that is the only thing a defensive first coach does, ignoring the "first" part of how Thibs is described, because it is not defense only.

My prior statement stands.

You're really trying to spin this and that's fine. It's the internet on a message board. I know how it goes.

I said Deng, Noah, Asik, Taj etc fit him to the max, yes. "To the max" is a figure of speech. How literal you want to take it is up to you. But at the end of the day, Noah, Asik, Taj, Deng, Brewer, Bogans, Rose, Thomas are all "Thibs type players."

And yes, all defensive players aren't a good thing. Unless they're two way players. However, praising a lot of defensive players on a team coached by a defensive coach, shouldn't be confusing or misconstrued by you. Yes, the defensive pieces we had were a great thing. But we also had guys like Rose (MVP), Boozer, Korver, and Deng who supplied offense.

Who's really moving the goal posts? That roster fit Thibs more than what this roster fits Fred. It's really simple, and that was the original point I made.
 

Crystallas

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don't take "he was given his pieces" as "he was given a championship team" what i meant by that was that he came to a team with players that fit what he wanted to do

yes they lacked scoring and needed to address that which never got done or atleast they had a bad attempt at it with Rip Hamilton

If the team fit what he wanted to do, then they would have won a championship, even if they weren't a championship team to begin with. Do you think Rose was going to win an MVP regardless? If VDN was kept on, would Rose win an MVP? VDN isn't a bad coach, he just isn't a top-tier coach.
 

clonetrooper264

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Atlanta did too. And the Sixers did too once Rose was gone.
I suppose so. I maintain Thibs never really used Korver properly. His best moments came from working off of Rose's drives, not running through 3 screens like Ray Allen. That also likely played into teams shutting him down. How Atlanta is using him is how he's best used.
 

Scoot26

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I suppose so. I maintain Thibs never really used Korver properly. His best moments came from working off of Rose's drives, not running through 3 screens like Ray Allen. That also likely played into teams shutting him down. How Atlanta is using him is how he's best used.
Correct. I'll agree with that. Thibs didn't know how to use Korver in any way except like Ray Allen.
 

Axl Rose

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This is changing the narrative a LOT, I would say. And before the whole argument about Firing Thibs to bring Hoiberg in was about how Mark Jackson was fired to bring in Steve Kerr. And that sentiment, including by yourself was echoed as a perfect reason to why Hoiberg would make this team better. Because the FO started drafting/signing offensive first players and that Thibs was hindering them. That is why Fred was the answer, because he fit the current team. Or do we all have short term memories now?

i admit i was wrong totally on that and ive even went as far as to apologize to tom for putting the blame on him

i had the idea that the young guys would ascend and be big contributors and Rose and Jimmy would develop a chemistry and would be throwing alleys to each other on a fast break....gee what a load of shit that was

i still believe in Hoiberg's vision but now hes got half court isolation team and the guys like Doug/Niko that where supposed to bridge the gap to the new style just haven't stepped up
 

Enasic

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When I said Thibs was reluctant to play him, Korver only averaged 20 MPG his first year here. 22 MPG his second. Compare that to Brewer who got 22 and 25 MPG his first two seasons. There were some who said Bogans should have been cut out of the rotation, or at the very least, been limited to 10 MPG and not the 17 MPG he was getting. So while Korver did get consistent minutes, Thibs did limit him more than he really had to. Instead opting for more defense in Bogans and Brewer.
 

clonetrooper264

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i admit i was wrong totally on that and ive even went as far as to apologize to tom for putting the blame on him

i had the idea that the young guys would ascend and be big contributors and Rose and Jimmy would develop a chemistry would be throwing alleys to each other on a fast break....gee what a load of shit that was
Rose and Butler do work well in transition...but they never really get in transition so it doesn't matter.
 

clonetrooper264

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Correct. I'll agree with that. Thibs didn't know how to use Korver in any way except like Ray Allen.
And I suppose since he coached Ray Allen that's not that surprising.
 
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