2016 Playoff Discussion Thread

its not laughable really....even with Klay playing out of his mind and Durant playing heroball all night, OKC still could have won the game if not for a collapse in the last 5 minutes....i don't think it matters though and the debate is tired

i don't think Warriors season will ever surpass that Bulls season when it comes to glorification

It's laughable to predict a sweep as the Bulls at their best didn't manage to sweep the likes of the Jazz or Trailblazers and this Warriors team is just as good as those teams if not better.

SilenceS said:

96 Jordan was not the defender he was in 92. Just saying

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True but there really is no good defense for a guy that can create his own 3 point shot from that deep. That is what makes him different from a Reggie Miller or Ray Allen. They need to come off screens or receive a pass. Curry is the greatest pull up 3 point shooter ever and frankly it's not a skill we have ever really seen in the NBA before to this extent.

There was a stat that NBA shooters shoot about 45% when they are wide open ie a defender is 12 feet away. Curry shoots 44% from 3 when a defender is basically in his face. Despite the shit ton of threes he shoots, he went almost the entire season without one getting blocked.

So good defense isn't necessarily going to stop him. It's just a matter of whether his shot is falling or not. If it is then Jesus isn't going to be able to defend him.

remydat said:

It's laughable to predict a sweep as the Bulls at their best didn't manage to sweep the likes of the Jazz or Trailblazers and this Warriors team is just as good as those teams if not better.

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for one those years don't count in the context of the argument.

however they did lose 3 playoffs games during the 72-10 season.....you can say Warriors are on par, if not better than those teams by comparing talent on paper and that would be a fair assessment.

but you're totally not taking in account matchups...maybe Warriors have a hot night while Bulls have an off one, but comparing the MATCHUPS, Bulls have everything it would take to snuff the Warriors out.

so would Bulls sweep? who knows. however i don't think its inconceivable. (ftr ive actually said on here i'd give Warriors 1 or 2 wins so im not deadset on a sweep, but don't see them as a threat)

Bulls wouldnt sweep OKC. Why is everyone so inept on the playing ability of the guys now a days. OKC and GS have a team worht of athletes that would make the Bulls look so unathletic. Jordan and Pippen are great. Both these teams would give them hell. Athletes are way better now a days. Doesnt mean the Bulls wouldnt beat them but its comical that people act like these two teams wouldnt bring the house to them.

BNB said:

I'm not giving Durant and RW a pass for last night. Yeah, they combined for 71 points. But it also took them 59 shots to get there, and they shot 39%. They also combined for 10 turnovers.

Ibaka and Adams played at about the same level as they have for the entire series. The only player on the bench that got worthy minutes was Dion Waiters. And yeah, he didn't show up. But if Durant and RW were more efficient, it wouldn't have mattered.

And every time OKC got close last night, what killed them? A RW or KD turnover on a fast break, which resulted in a GS fast break, which resulted in free throws a lot of the time. And when GS got off to an early lead, it was KD and RW that couldn't buy a shot. They were also the ones that brought them back in it. They live and they die by how well RW and KD play. Last night, they weren't good enough. When two players take 65% of the team's shots and hit only 39% of them, you'll probably have a very hard time winning.

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What I said here pretty much applies to the game last night as well.

KD and RW took 65% of the team's shots, and made 34% of them. If they had just an average shooting night, it would have been over.

Axl Rose said:

for one those years don't count in the context of the argument.

however they did lose 3 playoffs games during the 72-10 season.....you can say Warriors are on par, if not better than those teams by comparing talent on paper and that would be a fair assessment.

but you're totally not taking in account matchups...maybe Warriors have a hot night while Bulls have an off one, but comparing the MATCHUPS, Bulls have everything it would take to snuff the Warriors out.

so would Bulls sweep? who knows. however i don't think its inconceivable. (ftr ive actually said on here i'd give Warriors 1 or 2 wins so im not deadset on a sweep, but don't see them as a threat)

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I wasn't referring to strictly the 72-10. I was pointing out Western Conference teams I felt were the best teams they played against. Even if we limited it to 1996, the Bulls still dropped 2 games to the Supersonics.

And I don't know what you mean by comparing matchups. There is no player the 1996 or any Bulls team faced that is comparable to Curry. Jordan and Pippen aren't going to stop Curry and Thompson from taking 30 footers. You just can't consistently guard someone that far out.

The best stat to compare against eras is probably PER. League average PER in any given year is typically 15. The 96 bulls had 4 players with a PER of 15 or better that played a decent chunk of minutes. Those guys were Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc, and Kerr. The Warriors have 6 players with 15 PER or more. Those guys are Curry, Green, Thompson, Ezeli, Speights, and Bogut. They are the deeper team. And even if you look at just the top 3 for each team the PERs for each player is as follows.

1. Curry 31.5
2. Jordan 29.5
3. Pippen 21.0
4. Kukoc 20.4
5. Green 19.3
6. Thompson 18.6

So the the top guys match up pretty well with each other and the Warriors have better all around big men. So not sure what you are going off of. The Bulls don't have the offensive big men to seriously trouble the Warriors and the Warriors also have a ton of guys that can guard the perimeter. What I see are two evenly matched teams and what it would come down to is which combination of a teams big 3 offensively is going to have the bigger night.

BNB said:

What I said here pretty much applies to the game last night as well.

KD and RW took 65% of the team's shots, and made 34% of them. If they had just an average shooting night, it would have been over.

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Yeah but that's like saying if the Warriors played better in the games they lost, they would have won. With so much of the game today based on outside shooting, teams are going to have ups and downs like that. In their 3 losses, Curry had 26, 24, and 19 points on god awful shooting. He shot in the 35% range each time. Thompson had 25, 18, and 26 but still shot in that 35% range.

So this series has always been about which of the star shooters shoot more efficiently.

remydat said:

True but there really is no good defense for a guy that can create his own 3 point shot from that deep. That is what makes him different from a Reggie Miller or Ray Allen. They need to come off screens or receive a pass. Curry is the greatest pull up 3 point shooter ever and frankly it's not a skill we have ever really seen in the NBA before to this extent.

There was a stat that NBA shooters shoot about 45% when they are wide open ie a defender is 12 feet away. Curry shoots 44% from 3 when a defender is basically in his face. Despite the shit ton of threes he shoots, he went almost the entire season without one getting blocked.

So good defense isn't necessarily going to stop him. It's just a matter of whether his shot is falling or not. If it is then Jesus isn't going to be able to defend him.

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Don't discount Jesus. He kicked ass on defense.

Westbrook and Durant just don't have the mental acumen to lead their team to a title.

Axl Rose said:

its not laughable really....even with Klay playing out of his mind and Durant playing heroball all night, OKC still could have won the game if not for a collapse in the last 5 minutes....i don't think it matters though and the debate is tired

i don't think Warriors season will ever surpass that Bulls season when it comes to glorification

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They won't. Their margin of victory is considerably not as impressive and the 96 Bulls would have never found themselves in this situation as well. People forget how good defensively Ron Harper and Randy Brown were.

The Bulls were a defensive juggernaut. 3 first team all defenders that season. They are quite a bit better defensively than this Warriors team. Warriors would win at least one or two, but they wouldn't win a series. Rodman, Jordan, and Pippen are all better defenders than either Klay or Iguodala( whomever you consider GS best defender).

The Hawk said:

Don't discount Jesus. He kicked ass on defense.

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I know he could drop da sickness on you real quick but don't knoworry if he had the lateral movement to be an elite defender.

bamainatlanta said:

Westbrook and Durant just don't have the mental acumen to lead their team to a title.

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I wouldn't say that. I still think they have a pretty good shot in game 7. I will say this, KD should be glad he's had Westbrook on his team to take so much of the blame and the criticism and being this hotly debated figure, because if he didn't, the heat he would receive would be gigantic. That's not to say he's overrated, he's a top 5 player in the game, but he is insulated and shielded more than most big time scorers and franchise players are. CP3 gets away with it because he's more of a facilitating PG, but it's rare that a perimeter play maker and scorer doesn't get torched for not putting his team over the top. Especially when you're regarded as a top 3, or top 5 player, at worst. This could all change tomorrow if OKC wins, but I still stick to how I felt for the past 2 seasons...Westbrook is the better player between the two. Not by much, but if I were starting a team, I'd take Russ over KD.

Warriors are not a team of super athletes, so i don't know where you get the notion that they would make Bulls 'look slow' as if they were a team full of white men in the 60's

remydat said:

And I don't know what you mean by comparing matchups. There is no player the 1996 or any Bulls team faced that is comparable to Curry. Jordan and Pippen aren't going to stop Curry and Thompson from taking 30 footers. You just can't consistently guard someone that far out.

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Warriors have struggled against teams with length and thats one of the reason why OKC nearly took them out.

that 96 team could put out a lineup that has not one guy under 6'6 and all of them with a 6.9+ foot wingspans and 4 of them being versatile defenders that could defend 3 or 4 positions.

again Curry/Klay can have a hot night, but i think OKC has done a good job of containing them and even with Klay going off for a record setting night, OKC still could have won the game if not for a them choking.

if you're main issue is saying "sweep", then okay it would be a gentlemen's sweep i don't see them being a threat because thier achilles heel happens to be one of Bulls main strengths

bamainatlanta said:

They won't. Their margin of victory is considerably not as impressive and the 96 Bulls would have never found themselves in this situation as well. People forget how good defensively Ron Harper and Randy Brown were.

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True story, I scored against randy brown when I was 6 years old. He hosted a basketball clinic in my city and I drove on his ass and layed it up. Got it on video somewhere. Biggest accomplishment of my basketball career.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Axl Rose said:

Warriors have struggled against teams with length and thats one of the reason why OKC nearly took them out.

that 96 team could put out a lineup that has not one guy under 6'6 and all of them with a 6.9+ foot wingspans and 4 of them being versatile defenders that could defend 3 or 4 positions.

again Curry/Klay can have a hot night, but i think OKC has done a good job of containing them and even with Klay going off for a record setting night, OKC still could have won the game if not for a them choking.

if you're main issue is saying "sweep", then okay it would be a gentlemen's sweep i don't see them being a threat because thier achilles heel happens to be one of Bulls main strengths

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How have the Warriors struggled against length when they were 73-9 in the regular season?

Thompson and Curry made 678 3 pointers this year. They both beat the previous record held by Ray Allen. This idea that the Bulls are going to be able to guard two of the greatest 3 point shooters from 30 feet out for 48 minutes is laughable. Further, when the Warriors go small, it's going to force Rodman and Longley to have to guard Green out on the perimeter.

The Bulls teams were designed to beat teams in an era where most people tried to get in the paint or shoot mid range jumpers. They were not designed to beat teams that shoot so many 3s from so many different places. In 1996, the average NBA 3point percentage was .367 and the bulls were 6th in the league by giving up .350. The team with the best 3point percentage was the Bullets who made 493 3s out of 1212 for a .407 rate. The team with the most 3s that year was the Mavericks with 735 but they shot .360 because typically when you shoot that many threes your percentage goes down.

So Curry and Thompson combined made more 3s than the Bullets and were not too far off from the Mavericks. This year the league average 3point against is .354 and the Spurs and Warriors actually were the best teams against the 3 allowing only .331 and .332. In the flip said, the Warriors made 1077 3s and led the NBA in shooting percentage at .416

So no, the Bulls have never faced a team like this. The Warriors take and make more 3s than anyone in NBA history and they do so while maintaining a high percentage. They also guard the 3 better than the Bulls did. So it's highly unlike that the Bulls are going to clamp down on it. Thompson and Curry make more 3s and can shoot from deeper and off the dribble better than anyone the Bulls ever faced include a guy like Reggie Miller who was probably the best 3 point shooter in terms of frequency and percentage that the Bulls ever faced. Reggie still got his against the Bulls.

You are also talking about an era where teams can play zone to keep people out of the paint and force teams to take a lot of outside shots. For all their size, the Bulls big men are not offensive threats and the Bulls aren't built to take a lot of threes and even if the were, the Warriors once again are one of the best teams in terms of defending the 3. When the Warriors go small and have Green out on the perimeter as he can

The Bulls have an advantage under the old NBA rules but the Warriors are built to win in this era and the Bulls are not. The Warriors have a much better chance of clamping down on spot up 3 point shooters like Kerr or Kukoc than the Bulls have clamping down on guys that can pull up and shoot from anywhere on the court. The Bulls were a good 3 point shooting team but they were low volume wide open shooters. They got good looks because teams doubled Jordan. In this era you don't have to double Jordan as much because you can play zone. Jordan can go for 40 or 50 points on 2s all day but if Klay and Curry are shooting 3s at a decent clip they will come out ahead because a 3 point shot is worth more than a 2.

So I don't know who would come out ahead but it will be a lot closer than you are saying. You are overestimating the Bulls and underestimating the difference in rules by a fair amount IMO.

remydat said:

How have the Warriors struggled against length when they were 73-9 in the regular season?

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Bucks, Minnesota, OKC are teams that come to mind that have length and Warriors struggled against. none of those teams come close to the Bulls (well def not bucks/minny)

Thompson and Curry made 678 3 pointers this year. They both beat the previous record held by Ray Allen. This idea that the Bulls are going to be able to guard two of the greatest 3 point shooters from 30 feet out for 48 minutes is laughable. Further, when the Warriors go small, it's going to force Rodman and Longley to have to guard Green out on the perimeter.

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you say force Rodman to guard Green on the perimeter like that might be something that puts Bulls at a disadvantage. Rodman would own Draymond....Dray has been exposed this series

The Bulls teams were designed to beat teams in an era where most people tried to get in the paint or shoot mid range jumpers. They were not designed to beat teams that shoot so many 3s from so many different places. In 1996, the average NBA 3point percentage was .367 and the bulls were 6th in the league by giving up .350. The team with the best 3point percentage was the Bullets who made 493 3s out of 1212 for a .407 rate. The team with the most 3s that year was the Mavericks with 735 but they shot .360 because typically when you shoot that many threes your percentage goes down.

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you act as if there is no such thing as adjustments. Bulls certainty have the versatility to guard the 3 point shot. thats whats laughable, to assume because 3 point shooting wasn't as potent then, they couldn't defend it.

so far you're only legit point for Warriors is Curry/Klay have the ability to hit 3 pointers from 30 feet and rule changes (which is starting to dig deep into this mythical matchup...who decides what rules stick and ones that don't?)

let me make it clear: my argument is not that the Bulls are vastly superior but that they would have GS' number

ruh-roh

Gs stormin back.... Game on