OT: Michael Jordan's Prime

Scoot26

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LeBron has had three years of decline in numbers which leads me to say his prime is over.
 

FirstTimer

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Also, I love the gem you made when you said we couldn't look at a players prime until their career was over. Remember that?

Yeah, I do. Evaluating a multiple season "decline" of Lebron =/= evaluating a single season decline of Rodgers.

Remember when the two situations weren't/aren't the same?

A brain, do you have one?
 

didshereallysaythat

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Yeah, I do. Evaluating a multiple season "decline" of Lebron =/= evaluating a single season decline of Rodgers.

Remember when the two situations weren't/aren't the same?

A brain, do you have one?

Rodgers has declined in EVERY YEAR since his 2011 season.
 

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didshereallysaythat

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That's entirely inaccurate.

It took me 10 seconds on PFR to look at his numbers, laugh at you being wrong then come here and post this.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RodgAa00.htm

Rodgers 2014 was arguably the second best season his entire career.

Using your logic on Jordan:

2011 was his best year (his peak). Every year since then, he has not matched. He has gone 4 consecutive years without anything as good as 2011. Coming close in 2014 wouldn't count because Jordan came very close in 95-96 to his early 90s numbers. In fact, his PER was BETTER than a few of the early 90s years.
 

FirstTimer

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Using your logic on Jordan:

2011 was his best year (his peak). Every year since then, he has not matched. He has gone 4 consecutive years without anything as good as 2011. Coming close in 2014 wouldn't count because Jordan came very close in 95-96 to his early 90s numbers. In fact, his PER was BETTER than a few of the early 90s years.

No, no, and no.

Jordan never lead the league in PER post retirement. Rodgers lead the NFL in passer rating in 2012(again) then had a higher passer rating in 2014 than any other season sans 2011.

Jordan lead the league in some categories but no one was putting his decreased efficiency seasons of his late career ahead of Jordan from the late 80's into the early 90's when he was leading the NBA in scoring and shooting 50+% from the field and winning DPOY and MVP at the same time. Right now Rodgers 2014 is nearly indistinguishable from his 2012 and in some ways better. Jordan, you can view advanced numbers of his post retirement, see the regression and lack of black ink and make a pretty clear conclusion. Couple this with decreased playoff performance and the view is even clearer

You're wrong. Stop this madness.
 

didshereallysaythat

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No, no, and no.

Jordan never lead the league in PER post retirement. Rodgers lead the NFL in passer rating in 2012(again) then had a higher passer rating in 2014 than any other season sans 2011.

Your prime is comparing yourself with yourself. Jordan had a better PER in 95-96 than 91-92. Look at his numbers across the board.
 

Scoot26

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It should be noted Jordan was tied with David Robinson for 1st in 95-96 at 29.4 PER. Basketball reference just gave the tie to DRob.
 

didshereallysaythat

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It should be noted Jordan was tied with David Robinson for 1st in 95-96 at 29.4 PER. Basketball reference just gave the tie to DRob.

But that shouldn't matter anyway in discussing Jordan's prime. If Robinson had a PER of 35, it wouldn't change the level Jordan played.
 

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But that shouldn't matter anyway in discussing Jordan's prime. If Robinson had a PER of 35, it wouldn't change the level Jordan played.
Yes it would. It would mean Jordan was no longer the best in the league at a certain stat. PER is league dependent. If Jordan's PER was dipping but still leading the league you'd have a case. Jordan's PER started to backslide his last three seasons and he never lead the league in the stat again. Same deal with numbers like VOPR etc.

This is astounding. Jordan at one point was scoring 33.6 PPG on 53% shooting. He never came close to doing that post retirement but we are sitting here trying to say Jordan was still THAT Jordan?

:aj:

Jordan, like LeBron, was still the best player in basketball even out of his prime once age caught up with him.

Even in Jordan's 95-96 his playoff numbers weren't what they were before and his Finals numbers compared to his previous trips were pretty abysmal in context.
 

didshereallysaythat

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I am not even arguing for or against LeBron. I am just noting what I saw on hoopla when it was presented.
 

didshereallysaythat

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Yes it would. It would mean Jordan was no longer the best in the league at a certain stat. PER is league dependent. If Jordan's PER was dipping but still leading the league you'd have a case. Jordan's PER started to backslide his last three seasons and he never lead the league in the stat again. Same deal with numbers like VOPR etc.

This is astounding. Jordan at one point was scoring 33.6 PPG on 53% shooting. He never came close to doing that post retirement but we are sitting here trying to say Jordan was still THAT Jordan?

:aj:

Jordan, like LeBron, was still the best player in basketball even out of his prime once age caught up with him.

Even in Jordan's 95-96 his playoff numbers weren't what they were before and his Finals numbers compared to his previous trips were pretty abysmal in context.

Then like I said, if you went off ONLY his best statistical seasons, you would have to say that his prime was late 80s.
 

didshereallysaythat

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What is amazing to me is you take one stat (PER) and nitpick it and use that as your main reasoning because he didn't lead the league in it.

Going back to Rodgers... he will NEVER have the season he had again in 2011. I would bet a million dollars on it. Therefore, we can say with confidence (using your logic) that he is out of his prime.
 

BearDen

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What is amazing to me is you take one stat (PER) and nitpick it and use that as your main reasoning because he didn't lead the league in it.

Going back to Rodgers... he will NEVER have the season he had again in 2011. I would bet a million dollars on it. Therefore, we can say with confidence (using your logic) that he is out of his prime.
Quit while you're behind.
 

FirstTimer

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What is amazing to me is you take one stat (PER) and nitpick it and use that as your main reasoning because he didn't lead the league in it.

Going back to Rodgers... he will NEVER have the season he had again in 2011. I would bet a million dollars on it. Therefore, we can say with confidence (using your logic) that he is out of his prime.
You miss the post where I posted his Finals numbers? Or my mention of VORP? Or mentioning his FG%? Or maybe that he never won DPOY again? I mean, I've posted all that already.
 

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