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AussieBear

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the art of squirt.

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Crystallas

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You could find a deal here with used server parts. Just price them out and compare like you would any other CPU build. Pay special attention to motherboard specifications in tandem with the CPU so you don't run into memory incompatibilities. Both the e5-26xx and X56xx are fairly lenient when it comes to DDR3 compatibility.

The Sandy Bridge E5-2650 route has been gaining popularity with a lot of dumpster divers and e-cyclers, because it has been one of the most common server CPUs dumped because they have a lot of issues with secure data. Some of which could be blamed on the purchasing agents who hear the engineers and tech consultants, but order slightly different machines to shave tens of thousands off their hardware upkeep. For everyday Joe, the errata issues are no different than what everyday Joe is used to.

Once these companies migrate to a new solution and do nothing about the purchasing agents, the reputation in the company was that the computer system was fucked up, so employees don't want them, and the engineers are pissed at the purchasing agents, so most of them don't want any part of old hardware(plus they make a nice buck to buy superior hardware anyways), so instead they tip off dumpster diving friends and they try to resell the parts, or someone offers a good price to buy them up or e-cycle services. What happens from there, the person who tries to sell them sees that 1) the home recycled server market is piss poor. 2) these CPUs aren't drop in upgrades for people using old CPUs due to differences in motherboards. 3) they didn't know the length of the issues so they don't really test the parts, sell them as is or scrap them. 4) These are hard stressed used CPUs, likely running 50-100% 24/7 for years. Not like your home CPU when you might have spike periods here and there, but most of the time it sits much closer to idle. CPUs do wear down in many ways without overclocking and while running perfectly cool.

So like I said, part the system and compare. Then you weigh your options. It's really just a numbers game. I have a lot of systems that get daily use, and most are full rack form factor (E-ATX and Supermicro ATX) or workstations. They work perfectly fine for gaming. Also, if you okay with NOT buying a new case every build, you really shave a few bucks, because good cases raise the cost considerably. I never understood why people felt this need to buy new cases every damn time, but I also don't understand why people like christmas lights and a window in their desktop. You spend time looking at the monitor, not the case. I have an Antec P160 from 2004 that has seen 13 complete system builds and still works perfect for my hefty needs. I'll probably change my case headers and inputs for front panel i/o soon, just so I can use it for another 10+ years with USB 3.1.
 

AussieBear

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nvm..

i just bought a refurbished X3470 (4 core/8 threads 2.93-3.6 ghz) workstation with os for 200 bucks..it basically would have cost about 150-170 for cpu and suspect used mobo alone here..atleast i knoww i can just run it for now. cant wait to get this puppy to rip, transplant and oc when i buy all my other gear.. ..

this is my hold over system til who knows when.. hopefully it doesnt bottleneck a rx 480..
 

Crystallas

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For the price, you can find a use for that for sure. Even as a dualboxer. It's not going to be particularly fast, but a good size upgrade over what you had for sure.

It's tricky enough trying to convey the budget building trends with standard parts to someone in Australia where that info is thrown out the window in most cases. But then to explain the server/workstation side of which boards and how to go about it.. I was going to be at a loss for words on hardware. I'm just glad you have a temp solution now.
 

AussieBear

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For the price, you can find a use for that for sure. Even as a dualboxer. It's not going to be particularly fast, but a good size upgrade over what you had for sure.

It's tricky enough trying to convey the budget building trends with standard parts to someone in Australia where that info is thrown out the window in most cases. But then to explain the server/workstation side of which boards and how to go about it.. I was going to be at a loss for words on hardware. I'm just glad you have a temp solution now.

yeah..im glad this fell my way.. i get a chance to check out a xeon without having to worry if the used boards are compatible or working... my 530 is a lga 1156, but i want to leave that intact.. if all fails ill replace it... there are some cheap 1156 options on aliexpress for 50-70 usd... im gonna roll the die on one for now.. ill make some money back too, since the z200 comes with a bluray.. worth 65-85 bucks here... the quadro 600 goes for 50-60 bucks on ebay oz...

if the xeon is good, i may look into a xeon as my future rig.. i might just go ahead and get one or two match x5670s and sit on it hoping to run into a mobo locally...

any advice on any other xeons i should be looking at.. good price to performance.. not too outdated... where boards arent that hard to find...???

yeah ill probably leave the server boards and all its hardware alone, seems like a lot to learn...
 

Crystallas

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Xeons are just like any Intel CPU, but with specialized capabilities. Really, it's not that complex, but you get a different feature set in most configurations, and will wind up paying for things you wont need.

The majority of Xeon systems in production do not run on Windows, so we're talking about boards that are designed with high compatibility controllers and feature-sets under open systems to be malleable for those specific purposes. Which also comes at a certain premium and as you're discovering, the 2nd hand market can have a few hidden gems among these machines. As far as SMP machines (systems with more than one CPU) rarely do I see a benefit in gaming and it's a little bit of headache if you're trying to constantly hammer round pegs down square holes since most games don't have any optimization for multi-cpus. Heck, SLI/CF is still a pain in the neck just from the software side.
 

AussieBear

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Xeons are just like any Intel CPU, but with specialized capabilities. Really, it's not that complex, but you get a different feature set in most configurations, and will wind up paying for things you wont need.

The majority of Xeon systems in production do not run on Windows, so we're talking about boards that are designed with high compatibility controllers and feature-sets under open systems to be malleable for those specific purposes. Which also comes at a certain premium and as you're discovering, the 2nd hand market can have a few hidden gems among these machines. As far as SMP machines (systems with more than one CPU) rarely do I see a benefit in gaming and it's a little bit of headache if you're trying to constantly hammer round pegs down square holes since most games don't have any optimization for multi-cpus. Heck, SLI/CF is still a pain in the neck just from the software side.

ive never looked at a xeon chip ever... so im discovering a whole new world. the same with dual/server boards but i doubt i dive into that.. just looking for compatible boards close to consumer gaming set ups.. damn that price to performance though..

im already looking towards my next set up the e52670..that is, if i really want to commit.... i can still get a few new mobos here at local shops new for around 400... so 500-550 seems like a steal vs most of intels non xeons.. atleast to my untrained eyes... plus it wouldnt be as old as say my x3470 set up...i was thinking id get a year or so out of it.....but one year at a time though... who knows what one could get in a year or two time on the cheap
 

AussieBear

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a couple of good budgets on usa ebay...well maybe not, idk what goes for what in the usa....... one could just add a gpu to them and game... there are probably better ones.. but these just stood out during a quick search

HP z220 workstation... Xeon E3-1245v2 3.6-3.8 GHZ (4 core/8 threads) $323 USD or best offer.

HP z220 Xeon E3-1245 3.2-3.7GHZ (4 core/* threads) $298 USD or best offer

HP z210 Xeon e3-1230 3.2-3.6 GHZ (4 core/8 threads) $288 USD or best offer

Note: HP proprietary PSU connector.. where theres a will.. u gotta make an adapter
 

AussieBear

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got the x3470 today.... the hp workstation is fairly solid for being so old.. i cant see any new parts added.. idk what was refurbished.. its probably one of those windows 7 i cant update rigs.. its taken me a minute to fresh install... update some drivers and a few more minutes to fix the updating ability... updating the 104 windows updates...

im actually impressed with the quadro 600...need to fire up 3dsmax and see what it does... i may need to get a 2000 for cheap and stick it in the old i3 or in this one and use it as a workstation.. idk.. i got a socket 1156 mobo coming my way for the x3470 conversion, so i can oc.. i may just another 1st gen xeon for this rig.. maybe a x3440..
 

AussieBear

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i really like this workstation... perhaps its the xeon.. idk.. ive only ever had i3s in the latest generations... so having an equivalent i7 has been a jump in performance...especially when multitasking for sure..

as far as gaming..i ran civ 5 today... cpu was barely running... and the quadro did its job @ 1080p and high settings.. im keeping the machine and im going to get another x3470 cpu as well to oc for the rig. they are about 70 bucks on aliexpress..i havent seen any on ebay for days

gonna upgrade the quadro 600 to 2000 or the hd7750..i have power limitations... dont feel like coming up with a solution either... and get a sshd..

i want to upgrade the ram but i dont understand the process yet.. i keep researching but the internet always has the for and against crowds.. crys you have a server and understand this shit

can i mix single and dual rank ecc unbuffered modules?? will mixing different brands still work? what about same brand but different model numbers??

i dont even know if i can use non ecc ram on this hp board.. ive seen some say no and ive seen cosair recommending some non ecc for the z200..
 

Crystallas

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The memory controller is on the CPU, not the board. But the board also can negate what kinds of memory are supported.


Memory is complex. So much so, even the most seasoned enthusiasts need to see benchmarks before they understand, instead of understanding the science beforehand(yes, science, before computer science became a glorified IT field and EE became the resurrection of old CS).

For motherboard compatibility within a set memory standard, it's all broken down to spec.
You have clock frequency(CPU bus reliant), latency(cpu and bridge reliant). That's the easy part and anyone who has built a CPU figures that out in a second. Then you get into density, the amount of physical memory per layer then per module then per row then per pcb layer then per side of pcb. Finally you get into sequencing. All factor into what amperage is drawn, which then is converted from the sum of watt consumption to volts for simplicity. Next, you have population and array optimization, like dual/quad channel(something to factor in, as mixing memory makes multi-channel optimization tricky since the memory does need to match physically.)

For overclocking, the more sticks you use, the more power draw and therefore more heat created. Your board may be configured for flat orientation cooling or it might be configured for standing orientation cooling. So the memory ports might use a different layout than the standard consumer boards. Just be weary of that, because if the memory stacks like = the heat from the bottom transfers to the top if the system winds up standing. And yes, builders and manufacturers sell workstations and just throw these boards in. They don't plan on overclocking, which is the key difference. If standing and the modules are stacked side by side ||| , then you have a significantly smaller ham and cheese hot pocket.

Yeah, that's why people skip this part and stick to reading reviewsites for benchmarks. But why is that important? With server memory, the exact compatibility is not listed the same way with consumer boards in all circumstances because it does allow for more specialized configurations. This is why you can't get confused, despite my attempts to confuse you on purpose.

Now mixing memory. JEDEC standards make for cross communication between mixed modules possible, but they do not force compliance with mixed modules(and it would be stupid to do so). When it works the memory will default to the lowest common denominators if the mixed sets do in fact play nice together. You can mix ecc and non-ecc.


As far as ECC goes...
I'm biased, and the more I learn and the more years go by, the more I despise influential seats on standards committees that don't adopt it.
If you can, ECC all the way. All ECC ram in the modern era, is an extra tiny chip that makes sure what data goes in is the same as the data that goes out. If Special person gamer enthusiasts and beancounters at intel actually supported ECC, instead of repeating shit because they don't know dick, then we could start to strip away all the extra software that checksums bitvalues and recoup that performance since the hardware solution does it so much faster than software solutions. In short: less bugs, more stability, more performance. ECC memory has a bad wrap, because 1) ECC is a solution from the 70s for scientific computing so people equate the slowdown from 20+ years ago with better solutions today that have zero slowdown 2) Intel refuses to make it a standard since it would add ~$0.11 to every CPU, so people see it as this special thing only for special purposes. Which is such an ignorant response because games are extraordinarily complex in themselves and also benefit from added stability. 3) It used to cost an arm and a leg, and if it were an industry standard feature on DDR3/4(or hopefully DDR5 will do this, as there is a lot of push to force ECC) the cost gap would then be non-existent since it simply would be a tweak to the mapping controllers, instead of this extra chip rubbish that manufacturers need to use in order to be compatible with Intel consumer CPUs. 4) When ECC performance was close to 1:1 with non-ECC some 15 years ago, Intel had it's worst CPUs ever, with a ton of errata caused by the CPU that required a lot of fixing in windows and every other OS. The regular user had no way of identifying these issues because the CPUs did not support ECC memory, therefore every BSOD was either a software issue or blamed on bad memory. It was a lifeline to save the reputation of some really shit sub-architectures and lithography processes. Another reason fanboys are jackasses and should be objective, because then we could have solved the problem, instead of ignoring it and wasting many millions of software development hours on checksum correction methods throughout the industry. They contributed to cheating us all out of better everything.

ECC itself doesn't perform better or worse(despite some poorly worded claims from a number of memory manufacturers sales people), but it would make the rest of the system perform better, especially if we can drop all the patchwork jobs in software if adoption was a forced standard.


Short answer.
Step 1. You find the manufacture's site for the board, see what the board supports.
Step 2. Cross-reference that with what the CPU's built in memory controller supports.

Now you have your selection of memory.

Step 3. Cross-reference the lowest common denominators of your existing memory (or be smart and match everything)
Step 4. decide on how much you want to spend and if you want to go ecc or non-ecc(you wont offend me if you go non-ecc),
Step 5. find the best reliable memory for the price realizing you wont get more performance than your weakest stick.
Step 6. purchase/acquire
 

AussieBear

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im not a scientist for sure... i get volts.. speed and just basics... and looking at those bench marks to get some sort of validation from my untrained guesstimates helps.. ive never had issues on other boards in the past with mixing brands or models... even speeds.. im just not sure wwith ecc ram.. completely clueless i am...

searched for hours looking for documentation that would help clarify this board and its ram... i basically just get the same answer.. 1333 10600e or r.... ive never messed with ecc mem that i can recall. i dont know how forgiving it is.. is ecc proliant memory different from your standard ecc thats not labeled that? can you mix it together if so? is mix and matching 1.5v with thier low voltage brothers like 1.35v bad?

ill take your advice and stick with the ecc..

i can get the exact micron models from the usa for rather cheap.. 12 bucks for 2x4 gb... just bumping this up to 8gb of ram.. its just the shipping which is 97 bucks for some unknown reason.. when i can get different brands/models with similar ranks for as low as 20 bucks on ebay... i may have to get my sisor bro to send me some over the next time they ship something here... or just wait patiently on ebay for the same micron models to go live... ...im not trying to put much into this machine.. i like it, but if im going to start spending, i might aswell get a newer z workstation, which ill probably do in the future...
 

Crystallas

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ecc and non-ecc can mix. But like I said, the lowest common denominator will be forced on all sticks unless you overclock the memory, which is not as forgiving as OCing a CPU, so you want to make sure you know what you're doing there.

If you have ecc, and add non-ecc, then the ecc part will be disabled. You can also disable ecc in your bios on boards that support both, which all xeon CPUs do, but not all motherboards that support xeons.
 

AussieBear

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all is well.. the sis is going to send me the same model over when she mails the kid xmas shat..

still havent seen x3470 ebay for awhile.. i may have to get one from china... worst case.. i will get a i650 or x3440 to replace this empty rig which i can get for 20 bucks on ebay and sell it instead and get a z400..ive been eyeing those w3680 6 cores
 

AussieBear

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havent seen any local x3470s for awhile now.. so i decided to just upgrade the workstation itself.. while keeping the original x3470 cpu... or idk.. shiii..

still thinking because i just ordered another refurbished hp workstation..z400 for 280 aud.. 475 psu at 89% efficiency... so i can get a newer card in it without worrying about adapters and shitt.. i may overclock it one day if i can run across a fair priced x58 board...

z400 $280.00...

xeon w3690 3.46-3.73 Turbo 6 core/12 thread.
12 gb ram
quadro 2000

selling the z200 with a 20 dollar i3 or i5 and old hd 6950 i have laying around in a couple of weeks for 150-200 probably.. or maybe i should just keep the x3470 as a secondary workstation if the w3690 can game as is.....so im in for 480 aud (369 usd)... for two complete and capable xeon rigs.. my 6600k build was @ 1500-1600 aud
 

Crystallas

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The quadro 2000 is like a geforce 460. So theres another part to keep your eyes on for swapping, anything worthwhile better than a 460 GT-ish card.

But yeah, seems like you're having more fun learning about basic enterprise hardware than simply getting maxed games. lol. Just be careful not to setup an upgrade path to nowhere that only makes sense in a database environment(where the specs are always better, but real world performance does jack shit for you).
 

AussieBear

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The quadro 2000 is like a geforce 460. So theres another part to keep your eyes on for swapping, anything worthwhile better than a 460 GT-ish card.

But yeah, seems like you're having more fun learning about basic enterprise hardware than simply getting maxed games. lol. Just be careful not to setup an upgrade path to nowhere that only makes sense in a database environment(where the specs are always better, but real world performance does jack shit for you).

yeah... fps is nice and all.. but its not my end all be all.. i will be using it as a workstation too... i wasnt looking for the 2000 specifically in this rig, it just comes with one.. i was looking for one or the hd 7750 for the x3470 rig due to the psu.. but now i have some room to go a little newer..

for gaming.. the 1050ti and rx 460 75 watt... even upgrading to a quadro 4-5k is possible now.. i dont really have an upgrade path.. windows 8 at the max and maybe that linux transition.. 12 gb ram is fine.. just a new ssd and maybe another hhd and im good until it dies..

i decided to keep the z200 as is and i will give it to my son to play with.. hes only 3 but eh.. wtf why not.. by 5-6 he'll be in to it.. hopefully..but he wants my computers now, he tells me all the time.. hes already claimed the ipad... talk about a bargaining chip to do or not do things..i will be trying to push a tech path on him... not forcefully.. just through accessibility.. building robots.. basic scripting shit.. etc

i didnt know those w3690s were like 1k+ years ago.. they still sell loose for 200ish on ebay here.. from what ive read its the i7 990x equivalent... i feel like i got a great deal...i just wont know until i try to turn it on i guess... it should be here by monday.. so fingers crossed... they did have two others too though.. so an easy swap out if they dont sell them..
 

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