HOF rant!

SilenceS

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Let me clarify, congrats to the new inductees. They all deserved it. But, put fucking Clemens and Bonds in. Bagwell and Pudge were juicers as well and you put them in. Bonds is one of the greatest players ever with or without the gas. Clemens was a phenom with an incredible career. Stop being fucking petty. Its a joke that they are not in. The majority of major leaguers juiced during that era. The playing field was pretty even. Stop acting like you are judge and jury and do the right thing. Also, go Pete Rose.
 

Omeletpants

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AussieBear

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Let me clarify, congrats to the new inductees. They all deserved it. But, put fucking Clemens and Bonds in. Bagwell and Pudge were juicers as well and you put them in. Bonds is one of the greatest players ever with or without the gas. Clemens was a phenom with an incredible career. Stop being fucking petty. Its a joke that they are not in. The majority of major leaguers juiced during that era. The playing field was pretty even. Stop acting like you are judge and jury and do the right thing. Also, go Pete Rose.

i agree with bonds... aside from being a juicer..clemens is a statutory rapist... im sure that comes up.. i havent forgot.. you know the media hasnt..

fuck pete rose...
 

brett05

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Does Bagwell have more steroids suspicion than Piazza?

I'm still bummed that Lee Smith is out.
 

anotheridiot

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its not a hall of fame until Pete Rose gets in. As long as they keep the greatest hitter and hustle player ever out of the hall of fame, its just a building. My bet they are waiting for the guy to die, like they did Santo (who I dont think belongs anyway)
 

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its not a hall of fame until Pete Rose gets in. As long as they keep the greatest hitter and hustle player ever out of the hall of fame, its just a building. My bet they are waiting for the guy to die, like they did Santo (who I dont think belongs anyway)
You never saw Santo play. Hank Aaron claimed he was in the top 5 in the NL during his career
 

didshereallysaythat

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IMO, it really has nothing to do with steroids. They just use steroids as the excuse when they don't like a player. It always has been about likability. Bonds is disliked for many reasons with ego being at the top of this list. They hate Clemons because of his far right political stance in a liberal driven media. Same goes for Schilling.
 

JP Hochbaum

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They will eventually get in, part of their punishment is just making them wait. I wouldn't stress over it.
 

brett05

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Shoeless Joe Jackson goes in before Rose
 

Parade_Rain

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its not a hall of fame until Pete Rose gets in. As long as they keep the greatest hitter and hustle player ever out of the hall of fame, its just a building. My bet they are waiting for the guy to die, like they did Santo (who I dont think belongs anyway)
Ted Williams was the greatest hitter ever and Babe Ruth was close behind.
 

SilenceS

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I thought it was a very odd HOF class.

Pudge Rodriguez is the greatest all-around catcher I've ever seen, but the evidence was pretty clear that he was on steroids. Accusations, weight fluctuations, head size, etc. People were suspicious of Bagwell too...I don't think the evidence was as clear in his case, but he also wasn't nearly as strong a candidate as Rodriguez.

Tim Raines was a very weak candidate, IMO. The sabermetric love for him was too much, and the statistics cited were the usual 'misleading' stuff. He had one season in which he finished top 5 in MVP balloting, and that was a 5th place finish in 1983. He was a compiler who didn't really compile.

But back to the steroid stuff, it really makes no sense to me. If its enough of an issue to keep arguably the greatest hitter (Bonds) and one of the greatest pitchers (Clemens) out of the Hall, then you would think that Rodriguez's (and to a lesser extent, Bagwell's) alleged steroid use would be the number one story everywhere. The headline being "Cooperstown finally opens their doors to steroid users" or something like that. The fact that it wasn't even really mentioned is very strange.

To end with, I read another sabermetric-driven HOF thing where they talk about how Mike Mussina might make the HOF because he had a relative strong showing with 51.8% of the vote...but if you look at the guys on this year's ballot, Mussina is like the 13th best guy. In typical HOF voting idiocy, you had guys like Sosa, Sheffield, Manny Ramirez, Larry Walker all finishing well below Mussina on the ballot...HUH? And does Mussina really have that much stronger of a HOF resume than guys like Schilling, Lee Smith, Jeff Kent, etc.?

Lee Smith is a shame. Schilling is because of his views and people dont like him, so they nitpick him. I agree with your whole above on Sosa and all them. Manny Ramirez may be one of the best hitters I have ever seen and he gets that percentage? Sosa has 600 home runs. I dont care if he gassed. Show me the other players who gassed and hit 600? Larry Walker is just fucked because of Colorado. No one will give him credit for it. Sheff is a great player, but he is probably not worthy. Horrible defender and wasnt Manny or Sosa with the bat. Its crazy how this is just like a popularity contest.
 

nickofypres

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No reason for the roiders to no be in the HOF.

Baseball literally looked the other way when it made them a shit ton of money, and even voted in the dude overseeing the damn sport when it happened.

What a joke.
 

CSF77

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I really think it comes down to likability. Clements was an ass. No one likes Bonds.

Not to mention he cheated his way to the home run records. No one is going to push them up.

Bag's cheated but he didn't make a spectical of it. He wasn't pulling Palmero's finger up denyal then popping after.

He didn't admit to it after the time passed for purgery like Big Mac did to clear his conscience.

It is what it is. Those guys were the villains of baseball and they got dammed for being famous and outspoken about not doing it.
 

SilenceS

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I really think it comes down to likability. Clements was an ass. No one likes Bonds.

Not to mention he cheated his way to the home run records. No one is going to push them up.

Bag's cheated but he didn't make a spectical of it. He wasn't pulling Palmero's finger up denyal then popping after.

He didn't admit to it after the time passed for purgery like Big Mac did to clear his conscience.

It is what it is. Those guys were the villains of baseball and they got dammed for being famous and outspoken about not doing it.

Bonds was a top ten player without roids. Guy was a freak since the day he stepped on a field. Take the old timers out for taking greenies by the handfuls. Many, many players took roids that you won't even remember their name.


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DanTown

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I thought it was a very odd HOF class.

Tim Raines was a very weak candidate, IMO. The sabermetric love for him was too much, and the statistics cited were the usual 'misleading' stuff. He had one season in which he finished top 5 in MVP balloting, and that was a 5th place finish in 1983. He was a compiler who didn't really compile.

Tim Raines PA - 10359
Tim Raines OBP - .385
Tim Raines fWAR - 66.4
Seasons above 5 fWAR - 6
Highest WAR - 7.2, 6.7, 6.7

Tony Gwynn PA - 10232
Tony Gwynn OBP - .388
Tony Gwynn fWAR - 65.0
Seasons above 5 fWAR - 4
Highest WAR - 7.4, 6.3, 6.2

Raines literally had to wait the entire time he was eligible so it's not like he made it on ballot one.
 

Shawon0Meter

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I don't want any likely-steroids guys in personally....but I do agree that they're letting likely-steroid guys in now and not Bonds just because he was the best with them or something which is really weird.
 

TL1961

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its not a hall of fame until Pete Rose gets in. As long as they keep the greatest hitter and hustle player ever out of the hall of fame, its just a building. My bet they are waiting for the guy to die, like they did Santo (who I dont think belongs anyway)

Pete Rose is in jail for a crime he committed. His on field greatness would have put him in, but he can't go to the HOF, as he got himself in jail. Rightly so. Let's stop this stupid rehashing of Rose's hits and exploits. He comitted the ONE crime that gets you banned. That was the rule. He knew it. He should NEVER be in.

As for the current class, the writers are getting all giddy as "the steroid wall is coming down", as one website had it. (I believe ESPN). These writers want everybody in. They whine that they can "only" vote for ten. In their eyes, everyone should get into the HOF, and then they will start polls of "Who are the 100 greatest hall of famers?"

I bristled at the notion a few years ago that "the guy in Peoria or Des Moines shouldn't get a vote as that's not an MLB city". In their minds, only they can identify a HOFer, and they do it by interviewing them and getting chummy.

Sorry, I see it as exactly opposite. A guy in a non-MLB city CAN tell a HOF player. And they are FAR less likely to vote for a guy because he smiles when you interview him, and far less likely to ban a worthy player because he doesn't like to talk to reporters.

All my life, on the day they announce the HOF vote results, the analysts immediately speculate which player - like a Steve Carlton - got fewer votes than he deserved because he didn't give interviews. That should NEVER enter into it, but it does.

I am sick of hearing Stark and Kurkjian (both of whome I like, BTW) keep calling for more and more and more players in. Kurkjian nearly cried that "there will be a whole era of players not elected" if we don't ignore the fact many cheated. One year later, Maddu waltzed in, refuting that argument quite loudly.

I do believe Clemens and Bonds are among the very best to ever play, and would certainly have been in if their careers ended before the point where their steroid use started. But then again, if I cheat in a race, I don't still get the Gold medal because "I would have won anyway". So I have mixed feelings about them.

But for all the others suspected of steroid use, while Jayson and Timmy want to ignore that, I say it is unfair to all the guys who had equal talent, but are outside the HOF because they didn't pad their stats by cheating. Why reward these guys for doing so? The idea of "an asterisk" is insane.

So Jeff Bagwell, suspected PED user and FOUR time all star heads to Cooperstown. Hooray! Can't wait for Big Papi, known PED user who got better as he turned 40 - but hey, he's a happy go lucky guy, so vote him in.
 

TL1961

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Tim Raines PA - 10359
Tim Raines OBP - .385
Tim Raines fWAR - 66.4
Seasons above 5 fWAR - 6
Highest WAR - 7.2, 6.7, 6.7

Tony Gwynn PA - 10232
Tony Gwynn OBP - .388
Tony Gwynn fWAR - 65.0
Seasons above 5 fWAR - 4
Highest WAR - 7.4, 6.3, 6.2

Raines literally had to wait the entire time he was eligible so it's not like he made it on ballot one.

Interesting that you bring up Tony Gwynn. To me, Gwynn is a perfect example - along with Ozzie Smith - of how the HOF vote leans very strongly in favor of the "one tool player". Not saying they don't belong in the HOF. Just saying they both received a VERY high % of the vote, and both were extremely good in one area, and not as good an overall player as many guys who struggled to get in. Or didn't get in.

Gwynn was a singles hitter with a high batting average, which means so much less than people considered it to years ago. OBP is what counts. But we can't help reward the guy who earned his way on vs. a guy who walked. Yet if you're coaching, and the pitcher is walking your guy, you don't WANT your guy swinging for singles just to get the same result - 1st base.

Your example of OBP between Raines and Gwynn is a good one. I have questioned for years why many felt Raines should be in. I felt he was a good player who was never among the tops in the league at any time, and he was a "compiler". But closer looks softened my stance. (I like the stat that Rickey Henderson would have to have stolen 478 bases without getting caught to match Raines' stolen base %.)

Saber stats will sway the voters too far the opposite way in coming years, but hopefully sanity will prevail.
 

CSF77

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Tony was the face of his franchise. He carried much weight in the city. After him Hoffman became the franchise. Writers looked at other qualities when voting. Stand up guy is a factor. Maddux won that many games with out a over powering fastball.

It is not all about the numbers. Even if the the whole roids issue goes away Writers will look how they represented themselves as public figures.
 

brett05

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Lots of great writing in this thread on both sides of these issues.
 

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