Jonathan Allen vs Solomon Thomas

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CHICAGOMIDWAYMONSTERS said:
Jonathan Allen's Alabama defense will also have 6-7 guys getting drafted next month. Im more interested in Reuben Foster an Tim Williams. You cant block everyone.
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Amazing thesis. Yet the one position you can count on getting blocked every play, is the interior DL. Foster is the one going unblocked.
 
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Thomas gets swallowed up by bigger longer tackles. Allen throws them around, but could never be fully healthy. This is why I keep picking Adams if he's available, as he would be a huge difference Maker in a secondary completely lacking in it
 
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CHICAGOMIDWAYMONSTERS said:
Jonathan Allen's Alabama defense will also have 6-7 guys getting drafted next month. Im more interested in Reuben Foster an Tim Williams. You cant block everyone.
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Foster was the best player on that defense.
 
laputan

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HawkBear said:
What is the status of Allens injuries? I've cooled on him since hearing about those. Will those injuries not shorten his career?
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Bears' team doctors should have the answer on Allen. Here's one view:

"The Alabama team doctor said Allen is fine, but I wanted to get some information from a source with a little less connection. After speaking with a former NFL team doctor, I came away with the belief that Allen will be just fine. He's not a quarterback and because his arms won't frequently be extended above his head, the arthritis shouldn't impact his play. As long as the shoulders are stable, and it appears they are, Allen should be fine. Maybe it cuts his time in the NFL slightly near the end, but I don't believe Allen's shoulders should be a reason for him to drop. Now, that's not to say Allen won't drop. (There's already a report that he'll fall to 12-17 range). But I feel comfortable with Allen's shoulders and although he didn't test well at the Combine, I still expect him to go early in the NFL Draft. He's too damn good to fall, although there's still time for new information to emerge."
 

baredown

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Interior pressure; in the end, that's what this is all about. If you're drafting either of these guys at #3, you're doing so based on his ability to disrupt the interior of the pocket. You're not drafting Thomas at #3 to be a decent edge rusher. You're also not drafting Allen there just to be a control-the-gap guy. In looking at their respective abilities to generate interior pressure, Thomas would clearly seem to be a better choice...

Also, Thomas is a red-shirt junior. He only has two years of actual college experience. Allen played for four years. In comparing them, you really need to project where Thomas would be at with another two years of experience.
 
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Any joint that has had surgery is pre disposed/is considered arthritic.

Damage to the cartridge or surrounding ligaments is what arthritic conditions are based on.


I am not super concerned if he passes the physical of the Bears Drs.
 
Chicago4Life

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questions on if thomas can hold up at 3-4 DE, his tape shows moments where he gets engulfed, spun around by double teams and just moved off his spot... If he is not a 3-4 DE, can he be a great OLB? thats a big projection picking at 3 for a guy that has very limited snaps on the edge. Adams is by far the safest choice for an impact player at a position that is in need of a playmaker and leadership
 

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Chicago4Life said:
questions on if thomas can hold up at 3-4 DE, his tape shows moments where he gets engulfed, spun around by double teams and just moved off his spot... If he is not a 3-4 DE, can he be a great OLB? thats a big projection picking at 3 for a guy that has very limited snaps on the edge. Adams is by far the safest choice for an impact player at a position that is in need of a playmaker and leadership
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Again....same size as McPhee. Has the athletic testing numbers. It's not a big projection. Even if he can't play base OLB, the Bears play nickel 2/3 of the time. He can get a ton of snaps in the nickel either inside or with his hand in the dirt outside. Adams probably is a safer choice, but at a less valuable position on the defense.
 
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rawdawg he may measure the same size/weight but where is the weight is he a gym monkey with it all on the shoulders?? or does he have a bigger anchor?? (I beleive 'bubble' is Mayocks term) or if you were talking about rugby players we talk about static power and dynamic power.
 
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Who's the better prospect-Allen, Thomas or Tommie Harris from Oklahoma?
 
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http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/solomon-thomas?id=2558018

WEAKNESSES Considered a "tweener" by scouts, who believe he could struggle to keep enough weight on his frame to play along interior. Length is below average as five-technique. Plays with inconsistent pad level. Needs to get bigger and stronger through his lower body. Tends to play taller as play rolls along and can get washed out of plays by strong down blocks. Hands are quick but need more consistent pop behind them. Overall play strength can be improved. "Big and strong" across from him causes some issues. Gets engulfed at times. Snap-count guesser with seven offsides penalties in 2016.
 
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Good post but I'm not sure how guys with near identical frames....one can play everywhere and then 9 pounds the other guy is a tweener.

Their current skill level is what sounds like is limiting one in your mind, but Fangio would see the athleticism and decide it's Thomas he wants in 3 years after he gets his hands on him. Allen on the other hand is at his ceiling and can't be taught much.

My guy says Garrett has too much potential to pass on. Allen is too good a player to pass on. And Thomas is somewhere in between. But that might be 3 lineman who make taking a safety very difficult.

I'm on record saying this safety is way more valuable than the bears realize. He may be a rare safety who doesn't get hurt playing the position. He is overbuilt for it but hS the speed and instincts to close the holes in passing game. His dad as running back knew how to prepare his body for football.

Glenn Dorsey is a story that concerns me. Being a total game wrecker in college at the highest level does not always translate into pro power. Allen is trustworthy to be able to play football, but potentially injury prone. Lacks ideal athleticism and power for position and will have a hard and short road. Sure arthritis might set in after 15 years..I would guess 5 years in the NFL
 

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Great thread and discussion. I have a feeling SF takes Thomas-he just seems to fit as a DE in that 4-3 they're implementing. Would be a great pick by them. Its J. Allen or J. Adams for me at #3. I'm not too concerned about their combine #s. If football was played in shorts and sneakers on Sundays, there draft stock would be a lot lower. I'm concerned about what they do with pads on in games, and whether they whip ass on the football field. J. Adams and J. Allen have done that consistently. Don't overthink it. J. Adams would be the leader of our secondary for a decade. J. Allen would slide into RDE, extend Hicks, and Hicks-Goldman-Allen and Bullard rotating in would give us a dominating front D-line for years. If Pace doesn't go QB at # 3, either Allen or Admas would be a great pick IMO.
 
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I think if you follow principles you should take Allen. I expect Pace will do so if given the opportunity.

I trust my gut too much, would take Adams. Would try to trade down so I could take either Adams/Hooker/Lattimore or elite CB (haven't looked at the top guys and I know he is injury prone and not the target I would fall in love with)...same with Hooker. I think Hooker is a young inexperienced Ed Reed potential FS. We need the SS Dawkins/Mike Brown right now.

Still... is Allen>Bullard/Hicks/Unrein so much so than Adams>Amos/Bush/Hall

This actually tilts the field toward Adams because its 3 competence vs 3 incompetants.
 
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PolarBear said:
We had the Adams vs Hooker debate but what about the two premier DL after Garrett in this draft?

Jonathan Allen at 6'3, 286lbs (33 5/8' arms) has average size for your typical 3-4 DE. His combine numbers certainly will not blow you away. If your looking at him purely from a physical standpoint, you may wonder why is this guy getting so much attention. That is until you pop in the tape...

Allen has a quick get off and immediately wins battles with his hands with a variety of moves. While not an explosive, quick twitch player, Allen looks smooth and coordinated with his movements. He can set up his blocker with quick, coordinated feet and then finish with strong, precise hand technique. He diagnoses plays well and is able to stack and shed blockers very well in the run game. Very good instincts and high football IQ he always seems to be in the right spot to make the play. Had 22.5 sacks in two years. Was the best player on the best defense in the nation.

How does he fit? The Bears could plug him in at DE right away and he would make a considerable impact right away in nickel packages where he gets to rush inside and get to the QB. Would thrive next to big guys like Goldman and Hicks. I think we could see him causing havoc on stunts with Floyd as well, like we saw Aldon Smith and Justin Smith do in SF.

Solomon Thomas is the definition of a tweener. At 6'3, 273lbs (33' arms), Thomas is very small for an interior lineman. His combine numbers show that he is the complete opposite of Allen. Thomas is a twitched up, explosive, physical specimen.

Now some of will you will counter my interior lineman remark with the fact that people see him as an edge rusher. I personally think that if you make this guy a pure edge rusher, you are going to be wasting his ability and not playing to his strengths. When I watch Thomas rush from the outside (and he didn't do it a lot at all) he just doesn't look as effective in space. I don't think he is a natural edge bender nor is he really a smooth athlete. Thomas is more of your "bull in a china shop" than your "dancing bear".

Thomas is most effective coming downhill, using his crazy quick get-off to shoot gaps and get into the backfield. He can be downright scary and disruptive at times and almost completely took over that game against UNC.

How does he fit? This is where it's hard to find a spot for Thomas. You will need to be creative with how you use him. I think you would have to plug him in as an OLB in your base 3-4 front on early downs and then move him inside in nickel packages where he can shoot gaps to and get to the QB.

I think that because of the fit, Jonathan Allen is a better player for the Bears but I would have faith in Fangio's ability to utilise Thomas if they decided to go in that direction.

Give me the Dancing Bear over the Bull in a China Shop.
Click to expand...

Aaron Donald's combine numbers were close to each of these guys and some thought he was undersized for d-line.
6'1"
285
arm length--32 5/8
 
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We know Pace looks close at the get-off cuz Bullard is here.
 

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They are both great prospects. I'd lean towards Allen but Thomas has some special traits and Fangio is the kind of coordinator who can maximize those talents.
 
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legendxofxlink said:
Thomas gets swallowed up by bigger longer tackles. Allen throws them around, but could never be fully healthy. This is why I keep picking Adams if he's available, as he would be a huge difference Maker in a secondary completely lacking in it
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I see 3 options for the #3 pick as of now:

Trade down
QB
S

I think his first choice is hoping he gets a good trade down offer and after that it's QB and S even though i have OLB as one of our top needs. It seems like Pace has been trying to get the d-line worked out in free agency with the J.Jenkins signing and he tried to get RJF. The biggest need on paper after QB is clearly S whether that be FS or SS depending on where they wanna play Q.Demps.
 
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