Brady, Rodgers and Manning have given us a false premise.

BaBaBlacksheep · Apr 23, 2017

legendxofxlink said:
Someone posted yesterday that drafting a QB gives Bears a better chance at more than 8 wins in the future than any other pick

I didn't see the post. But wouldn't a good QB have a greater impact than any other player? So I guess I agree without seeing the post. Of course if we're talking the future as in specifically next year then another position would likely have a greater impact as a rookie QB will likely sit or have major growing pains. But 3,4 5 years out the right QB will or course have more impact.

BaBaBlacksheep · Apr 23, 2017

bearmick said:
Ditto.

Polar, you're absolutely right. But I don't think many people wanting to draft a QB in round 1 have the definite expectation that they'd be a Manning/Brady/Rodgers. It would be a wonderful bonus if they were that good, but really I think most of us (whether it's Watson or Trubisky) just want one of the types you mentioned that are young and good but not GOAT-level elite.

If you put QBs in four basic categories ...

1) Manning/Brady/Rodgers types

2) The types you mentioned (Carr, Ryan, Mariota, Wilson etc). Franchise QBs you build around, good enough to make you competitive but not superman enough to do it alone.

3) The ocean of meh - the mediocre guys good enough to be one of the 32 QBs starting on Sundays but not good enough to be "the answer", or the franchise player you want to build around. Cutler, Glennon (he gets into this group because he is starting but in reality he's been a level 4 until now), Fitzpatrick, Bradford etc.

4) The bums and backups.

For me, it's not that I expect the QB to do it all by himself, but rather that without that level 2 QB, we almost certainly won't be winning anything, unless we somehow managed to assemble a historically elite defense that's good enough to win a title with level 3 QB play (2015 Broncos, 2000 Ravens), which I think this is more of a stretch that hitting on a QB.

I think Watson and Trubisky both have a great chance of being one of these level 2 guys, even if they aren't the GOAT level 1s.

Does anyone here expect a QB to do it all by himself? Are there people here than think a good QB is enough or something? I know you don't. But where are these people saying this?

dabears70 · Apr 23, 2017

PolarBear said:
Every year, we talk about how important QB's are and how they can single handily get your team to the playoffs each and every year and we source Brady, Rodgers and Manning as our evidence. There is no doubt that QB is the most important position in all of football, and to be a good team, history shows you need to have a good QB.

What Brady, Manning and Rodgers have done now however, is make people believe that QB's can do it all on their own. No they can't. These 3 QB's are the exception to the rule. These 3 players are very likely the 3 most talented QB's we have ever seen grace the field in NFL history and we have been spoilt getting to watch these 3 guys over the years.

Think about all the QB's before these 3 and think about all the QB's that will come after in the league right now. Is there a QB out there who you can truly say, carried their team to the playoffs year in and year out like those 3? Maybe Dan Marino. Joe Montana, Jim Kelly, John Elway, Troy Aikman all had a GREAT supporting casts at the height of their careers and I don't think any one of those guys could carry a team on their own like we have seen Brady, Rodgers and Manning do at times.

Think about the QB's of the future that we have - Cam Newton, Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, Russell Wilson, Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota. Do any of you guys see any of these QB's having the same sort of impact on their teams as those 3? Derek Carr might be close but haven't seen enough yet.

My point is that, while it's extremely important that we find a good QB, a team can win without building solely around an all-time great QB and passing attack. Build around your running game, build up your defense and have a good QB to compliment them. Forget about trying to give your average-above average QB uber talented weapons and build around a passing attack.

I think you are going to see the running game and running backs come back into style shortly as we see the all-time greats like Brady/Rodgers leave the game and we have less of the cerebral, pocket passing QB's in the league.

So you're saying.....trade down and draft C.McCaffrey?? OJ Howard?? Stay at #3 and draft L.Fournette?? I myself would love any of those 3 but i think if we put C.McCaffrey on this team with J.Howard and build a top defense we'd be a tough team to play.

PolarBear · Apr 23, 2017

dabears70 said:
So you're saying.....trade down and draft C.McCaffrey?? OJ Howard?? Stay at #3 and draft L.Fournette?? I myself would love any of those 3 but i think if we put C.McCaffrey on this team with J.Howard and build a top defense we'd be a tough team to play.

Some of you really need to re-read the first two lines of the post.

This isn't about ignoring the QB position, it's about treating it the right way. I think that too many people are buying into this "passing league" thing and are thinking that an all-time great QB is needed to win a chip.

What we have experienced over the past 15 years is not the norm. I think we are unlikely to get QB's of this caliber ever again in one decade.

iueyedoc · Apr 23, 2017

Aaron Rodgers and Peyton Manning, despite their greatness, have accounted for 3 SB wins in 26 seasons and Manning's second, in 2015, was with him tied with Ryan Mallett as the worst starting QB in passer rating. Den won despite him rather than because of him. QB's are certainly heaped with too much praise and too much scorn for their performance. That said, no pick would fill me with more hope than Trubisky at #3. Well, until he busts in 3-4 years at least.

dabears70 · Apr 23, 2017

mecha said:
Manning was thrown into the mix right away. I've been arguing OP's points for a long time now, just to get shouted down by the "omgzzzzzzzzzz we needs elite QBs" crowd.

Elway went to 200 Super Bowls and didn't win it all until the rest of the team caught up. there have been many great QBs that played on dogshit incomplete teams that didn't even get to Super Bowls.

Pace is rebuilding this team thoroughly, I think to put an exclamation mark on the process would be to get his own QB of his choosing. that I can agree with.

I agree with this 100% especially the part where he should get the QB of his choosing. Too many people on here are so quick to wanna fire Pace cause he hasn't drafted a QB in the last two drafts and don't care that he only had the chance to draft one that looks like he'll be anything in the NFL which of course is Dak. Nobody cares that not one single GM thought this kid would be anything more than a clipboard holder but Pace is the one out of all the GM's that should be fired because of it...lol.

There will be many more QB's that will be missed by GM's in drafts because as has been said many many times on here, there is no exact science to predicting what these QB's will be at the next level. I'm 100% down with being patient with Pace and letting him draft the QB that he decides to draft and think if given that chance he'll find the right guy that he's looking for. He could swing and miss which happens multiple times in every draft but i trust he'll get it right whether that be in this draft or the 2018 draft but i do think he needs to take that swing in this draft or 2018 for sure.

dabears70 · Apr 23, 2017

PolarBear said:
Some of you really need to re-read the first two lines of the post.

This isn't about ignoring the QB position, it's about treating it the right way. I think that too many people are buying into this "passing league" thing and are thinking that an all-time great QB is needed to win a chip.

What we have experienced over the past 15 years is not the norm. I think we are unlikely to get QB's of this caliber ever again in one decade.

I got it and was being more sarcastic with my post, but not all of it cause i do think any of the 3 guys i mentioned would be huge help for us.

dabears70 · Apr 23, 2017

CHICAGOMIDWAYMONSTERS said:
I think Watson, Trubisky & Mahomes could all be as good as Mariota, Dak Prescott & Winston. They just need time to learn & develop.

I love Mahomes and his gun slinging ways and just love the kid himself but he scares me to and think he's gonna need a ton of work. Would love him at #36 but he won't be there at 36 so maybe we trade down or up from the 2nd round but would rather have either Trubisky or Watson.

policeman · Apr 23, 2017

Elway won two superbowls well past his prime, based on the strength of running game and defense. Erin Rodgers, for all his brilliance, has been to one Super Bowl. Manning won one Super Bowl well past his prime and another against Rex Grossman. Brady won a few early with a great defense, and then a few more due, mostly (though not exclusively) to his own brilliance.

Don't know what it all means, other than it's really hard to build a winner in the NFL and there is more than one way to do it.

ZOMBIE@CTESPN · Apr 23, 2017

bearmick said:
Ditto.

Polar, you're absolutely right. But I don't think many people wanting to draft a QB in round 1 have the definite expectation that they'd be a Manning/Brady/Rodgers. It would be a wonderful bonus if they were that good, but really I think most of us (whether it's Watson or Trubisky) just want one of the types you mentioned that are young and good but not GOAT-level elite.

If you put QBs in four basic categories ...

1) Manning/Brady/Rodgers types

2) The types you mentioned (Carr, Ryan, Mariota, Wilson etc). Franchise QBs you build around, good enough to make you competitive but not superman enough to do it alone.

3) The ocean of meh - the mediocre guys good enough to be one of the 32 QBs starting on Sundays but not good enough to be "the answer", or the franchise player you want to build around. Cutler, Glennon (he gets into this group because he is starting but in reality he's been a level 4 until now), Fitzpatrick, Bradford etc.

4) The bums and backups.

For me, it's not that I expect the QB to do it all by himself, but rather that without that level 2 QB, we almost certainly won't be winning anything, unless we somehow managed to assemble a historically elite defense that's good enough to win a title with level 3 QB play (2015 Broncos, 2000 Ravens), which I think this is more of a stretch that hitting on a QB.

I think Watson and Trubisky both have a great chance of being one of these level 2 guys, even if they aren't the GOAT level 1s.

And again a point everyone ignores we have the number three pick and likely will be able to pick the qb of our choosing. Or wait next year and possibly have to trade two first two 2 and whatever else to move up for a qb. I put glennon at the tier qb Kyle or ton was. He wasn't good enough when we traded a shit load for cutler so that level of qb should be unacceptable even by today's standards.

run and shoot · Apr 23, 2017

PolarBear said:
Every year, we talk about how important QB's are and how they can single handily get your team to the playoffs each and every year and we source Brady, Rodgers and Manning as our evidence. There is no doubt that QB is the most important position in all of football, and to be a good team, history shows you need to have a good QB.

What Brady, Manning and Rodgers have done now however, is make people believe that QB's can do it all on their own. No they can't. These 3 QB's are the exception to the rule. These 3 players are very likely the 3 most talented QB's we have ever seen grace the field in NFL history and we have been spoilt getting to watch these 3 guys over the years.

Think about all the QB's before these 3 and think about all the QB's that will come after in the league right now. Is there a QB out there who you can truly say, carried their team to the playoffs year in and year out like those 3? Maybe Dan Marino. Joe Montana, Jim Kelly, John Elway, Troy Aikman all had a GREAT supporting casts at the height of their careers and I don't think any one of those guys could carry a team on their own like we have seen Brady, Rodgers and Manning do at times.

Think about the QB's of the future that we have - Cam Newton, Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, Russell Wilson, Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota. Do any of you guys see any of these QB's having the same sort of impact on their teams as those 3? Derek Carr might be close but haven't seen enough yet.

My point is that, while it's extremely important that we find a good QB, a team can win without building solely around an all-time great QB and passing attack. Build around your running game, build up your defense and have a good QB to compliment them. Forget about trying to give your average-above average QB uber talented weapons and build around a passing attack.

I think you are going to see the running game and running backs come back into style shortly as we see the all-time greats like Brady/Rodgers leave the game and we have less of the cerebral, pocket passing QB's in the league .

Manning will probably go to the HOF based on reg. stats and the 2 SB's. But as we peel back the skin of the onion we find that his $$$ games record was mediocre ( reg. season...different story). And the SB's were given to him 1) by us via Grossman literally throwing the game away 2) the Denver "D" vs a ill-prepared Panther "O".

Brady/Rodger have actually at many times been all their teams have had. Kudos to Brady for making it to the SB without a real wr's corp.

PolarBear said:
Think about the QB's of the future that we have - Cam Newton, Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, Russell Wilson, Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota. Do any of you guys see any of these QB's having the same sort of impact on their teams as those 3? Derek Carr might be close but haven't seen enough yet.

My point is that, while it's extremely important that we find a good QB, a team can win without building solely around an all-time great QB and passing attack. Build around your running game, build up your defense and have a good QB to compliment them. Forget about trying to give your average-above average QB uber talented weapons and build around a passing attack.

Russell Wilson has already proven to be a elite Qb ( I read where he has the best Qb rating of any Qb in the first 3 yrs.). He's basically had garbage weapons to work with. Anyway....what we need is a Qb who brings the Brady-Wilson-Precott work ethic to the field and we'll be fine at the Qb position..... in today's game that favors the passing.

iueyedoc · Apr 23, 2017

run and shoot said:
Anyway....what we need is a Qb who brings the Brady-Wilson-Precott work ethic to the field and we'll be fine at the Qb position..... in today's game that favors the passing.

Does anyone know what this is?

The Hawk · Apr 23, 2017

policeman said:
Elway won two superbowls well past his prime, based on the strength of running game and defense. Erin Rodgers, for all his brilliance, has been to one Super Bowl. Manning won one Super Bowl well past his prime and another against Rex Grossman. Brady won a few early with a great defense, and then a few more due, mostly (though not exclusively) to his own brilliance.

Don't know what it all means, other than it's really hard to build a winner in the NFL and there is more than one way to do it.

Sure it is. But having a bad quarterback greatly reduces a team's chances to be good let alone a champion. THe Bear's haven't had a good quarterback since Jimmy Mac.

Tjodalv · Apr 23, 2017

iueyedoc said:
Does anyone know what this is?

It's this fantasy where Run and Shit believes that every QB he likes simply works harder than all the rest, despite none of us really knowing what kind of time any of them actually put in.

dabears70 · Apr 23, 2017

BEARZOMBIE said:
And again a point everyone ignores we have the number three pick and likely will be able to pick the qb of our choosing. Or wait next year and possibly have to trade two first two 2 and whatever else to move up for a qb. I put glennon at the tier qb Kyle or ton was. He wasn't good enough when we traded a shit load for cutler so that level of qb should be unacceptable even by today's standards.

I'm pretty sure everyone understands that we have the 3rd pick and might not be that high or high enough next year but with that schedule we landed we could be picking quite high next year. I also don't think anyone on this board think Glennon is our savior and knows he's just a stop gap until we do get our savior....hopefully. To try to predict what Glennon will be before he even plays a down for us and to say he's K.Orton is very much premature.

Magenta Aye-Aye · Apr 23, 2017

CHICAGOMIDWAYMONSTERS said:
I think Watson, Trubisky & Mahomes could all be as good as Mariota, Dak Prescott & Winston. They just need time to learn & develop.

I wouldn't be upset with a QB at #3 who produces like those guys. Like it's been said you can win with talent like that, just need some supporting cast. I still feel drafting Adams and securing the QB of the defense is more important right now. Glennon is not a fan favorite on these boards but I'm in the boat of still giving him a shot. I'll take the experience with him and drafting Adams over Watson or Trubisky. This might mean that Pace will have to go all in on a QB in the 18 draft.

iffybiz · Apr 23, 2017

Against better teams and and of course playoff teams the QB has to make plays. If all you can do is run the ball and have a limited passing game, good defenses will shut them down.
McMahon wasn't a great QB but he could make plays against good defenses.
Game manager types will help you win regular season games if you have the defense but win it all? Not very likely.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

bearmick · Apr 23, 2017

iffybiz said:
Against better teams and and of course playoff teams the QB has to make plays.

This is true.

And despite Peyton Manning's crap stats in 2015, the fact that it was Peyton Manning was enough to keep defenses more respectful of what a QB might do than would normally be the case with a QB with shitty numbers.

Then you look at the Seattle defense and running game which couldn't get over the line until they had a top 12 QB.

Yeah, you need the QB. Absolutely.

Josh2J · Apr 23, 2017

OP raises a good point that the QB expectation bar has been a bit raised because of Brady/Manning/Rodgers , and any knowledgeable fan realizes that its not logical to spend all your days hoping to find the next all time great...but rather you have to figure out how to build a winning football team with whats available.

I also don't believe all this crap about " oh they arent ready, they need a year or two to develop ", blah blah blah. How are they developing as a 2nd or 3rd string, getting very little reps in off-season? How are they really developing not having real bullets flying. They aren't. These guys either HAVE IT , or THEY DONT...that's all there is to it. They are gona be able to cut it or they are not. Its that simple.

The situation they land in to me is more of a factor than what system they ran in college or how many under center snaps they will have to take and footwork issues. If you go to a f*ed up organization like the Browns that has little talent and an evolving coaching door...then your chances of success are MUCH lower regardless of how talented you are, vs going somewhere like Pittsburg, New England, or Green Bay.

So its natural talent + situation that makes or breaks these QB's in my opinion unless they end up being an all time great and can turn around a franchise single handedly. As we have seen Luck was supposed to be the latest version of that and how is that really worked out so far?

Jailbreak · Apr 23, 2017

Yeah, I think that's a major issue. If you want to develop a qb you at least have to give him first team practice reps.

Brady, Rodgers and Manning have given us a false premise.

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