3 Bears To Step Up

Mongo_76 said:

And herein lies the issue. You think a guy who allows 4 sacks is average...

Click to expand...

Sacks is one measure and it is a bad one.

Does not take into account

-How often a team passes
-Quality of pass rusher
-How long the QB holds the ball
-If the pocket is disrupted
-If the OT is beaten cleanly


So no I do not base my entire evaluation of Charles Leno on giving up 4 sacks.

My guess is if you look at 32 LTs in the NFL that 4 sacks allowed is somewhere in the middle.

4 sacks allowed is not an impressive number, it is average.

WindyCity said:

Sacks is one measure and it is a bad one.

Does not take into account

-How often a team passes
-Quality of pass rusher
-How long the QB holds the ball
-If the pocket is disrupted
-If the OT is beaten cleanly


So no I do not base my entire evaluation of Charles Leno on giving up 4 sacks.

Click to expand...

But you can't provide stats for those other things...

So your evaluation is essentially jaded opinion - because it can't be anything else.

If I were to go with an O lineman to "step up"... Massie would be my pick... I understand the desire to replace him, but boy, we sure could use a middle of the pack RT this year at the very least.

WindyCity said:

What is he?

He is an average starting LT in the NFL. I think that is an incredibly fair assessment of him.

That is not a bad thing. My hope is that this season he can move to the above average realm and that we can extend him and just focus on getting Massie the hell off the field.

Click to expand...

The other thing he is is 25 years old. Leno has a chance to be a very good left tackle. He's already solid. He has improved each year and should continue to do so.

Leno is fine. I would put him in the 14-18 range right now, and still young with plenty room to get better. I think if you were to look at the numbers on his hurries, the majority would have been when Cutler was in. When they put QBs in who could get the ball out on time, he was really solid.

WindyCity said:

I agree they are way to hard on OTs.

Click to expand...

And if they are so hard on OT's, shouldn't they all have sky high hurries/pressures? Or is PFF singling out Leno just to spite Mongo?

Adipost said:

And if they are so hard on OT's, shouldn't they all have sky high hurries/pressures? Or is PFF singling out Leno just to spite Mongo?

Click to expand...

The point is thy don't accurately evaluate what a "pressure" is.

In Pace/Loggains system, (on many plays) it's take a 3 or 5-step drop, step up, throw.

An effective technique often used in that system is bump the edge rusher out past the QB as by the time the pass rusher recovers, the ball is out.

It's ridiculous to call that a pressure when it's exactly what the T was supposed to do.

Mongo_76 said:

But you can't provide stats for those other things...

So your evaluation is essentially jaded opinion - because it can't be anything else.

Click to expand...

I am not jaded at all.

I would like to see Leno take another step and continue to improve.

To me that would be huge for the Bears as he already represents one of their best draft values of the last decade. My hope is that we continue to see progression and can extend him and be happy and secure with the LT spot.

ZenBear34 said:

The other thing he is is 25 years old. Leno has a chance to be a very good left tackle. He's already solid. He has improved each year and should continue to do so.

Click to expand...

That is all I am saying.

I want to see the steady improvement continue. To me that is one of the most important storylines of the season as we get ready for Trubisky.

WindyCity said:

I am not jaded at all.

I would like to see Leno take another step and continue to improve.

To me that would be huge for the Bears as he already represents one of their best draft values of the last decade. My hope is that we continue to see progression and can extend him and be happy and secure with the LT spot.

Click to expand...

Great. Who wouldn't?

But just because you want him to improve doesn't mean he's average.

NCChiFan said:

If I were to go with an O lineman to "step up"... Massie would be my pick... I understand the desire to replace him, but boy, we sure could use a middle of the pack RT this year at the very least.

Click to expand...

Massie stinks, there isn't any potential there.

He has proven over 2 teams and 3 systems that he is inconsistent in pass pro and you cannot have that.

Mongo_76 said:

Great. Who wouldn't?

But just because you want him to improve doesn't mean he's average.

Click to expand...

No he is average because I watch every snap he takes and he looks average. As I said above he is somewhere in the late teens of LTs in the NFL which to me would also indicate that he is average.

You could be right that a lot of his bad plays could be traced back to Cutler, we will see this season. With Cutler as the QB he looked average perhaps with Glennon and Trubisky getting the ball out more promptly we see him play at an above average level and we extend him.

There is also nothing wrong with being an average players at a difficult position.

WindyCity said:

No he is average because I watch every snap he takes and he looks average. As I said above he is somewhere in the late teens of LTs in the NFL which to me would also indicate that he is average.

You could be right that a lot of his bad plays could be traced back to Cutler, we will see this season. With Cutler as the QB he looked average perhaps with Glennon and Trubisky getting the ball out more promptly we see him play at an above average level and we extend him.

There is also nothing wrong with being an average players at a difficult position.

Click to expand...

And watch every snap, an re-watch every snap, and watch All-22, and disagree with your opinion.

Mongo_76 said:

And watch every snap, an re-watch every snap, and watch All-22, and disagree with your opinion.

Click to expand...

You are more than welcome to.

Glennon's lack of mobility could make the OT's stats look even worse this year.

If "pressures" are indeed very subjective, you'd expect all the OTs to have higher numbers. I personally feel, given what I watched last season, that our OTs surrendered too many pressures. Those pressures might equate to sacks this year with Glennon under center.

Leno is above average and plenty serviceable but improvements should be expected from him given his age and experience. I don't ever see him being elite, but I believe a team can win with him if the QB has pocket awareness. Massie to me is a lost cause who needs to be replaced.

I too will just list positions where we need big improvements:

QB
CB
FS

MojoRisin said:

Glennon's lack of mobility could make the OT's stats look even worse this year.

If "pressures" are indeed very subjective, you'd expect all the OTs to have higher numbers. I personally feel, given what I watched last season, that our OTs surrendered too many pressures. Those pressures might equate to sacks this year with Glennon under center.

Leno is above average and plenty serviceable but improvements should be expected from him given his age and experience. I don't ever see him being elite, but I believe a team can win with him if the QB has pocket awareness. Massie to me is a lost cause who needs to be replaced.

Click to expand...

Agree on Massie, there is nothing there.

I am also concerned about Sitton's health/shape. He was heavy last year and had lots of problems with his legs.

WindyCity said:

Jay Cutler was the best QB the Bears ever had, did not make him good.

Leno is a solid starting LT in the NFL. My hope is that he can take the next step and really give the Bears a dominant OL.

Click to expand...

Jay was clearly not the best Qb we ever had. He was simply the most productive.

Kevin White - aside from the fact that he's Pace's first pick and it's a position of need, the morale boost for everyone would be huge. He seems really well liked by coaches and players, everyone is rooting for him. So I think it would play a big part in lifting the players up, especially as he has the potential to be a big play kind of guy. Most of us have written him off so it would also lift up the fanbase if we don't have to look for Meredith to become a #1 receiver.

Plus, what a boon for Trubisky to have an injury-free, impactful Kevin White ready to go in 2018. If Shaheen also flashes, it should allow us to go RT early in next year's draft.

Marcus Cooper - everything I've heard suggests he's a mature, serious guy with good ability to play the position. He's also battle hardened (especially compared to the rest of our secondary). If he could step up and be our number one corner in 2017 and lead the group along with Demps, that would be huge for us.

Leonard Floyd - there's a reason I've gone for Pace's two first round picks here. With the developmental nature of this year's draft and the likelihood that Trubisky will sit for a while, Pace really needs White and Floyd to dominate. Floyd has reported back in great shape and as long as he doesn't bulk up too much and lose speed, a full off-season in an NFL programme should really help him. I'm not as worried by the concussions as some, given that they were the result of poor tackling technique. If Fangio can stop him getting his head in the way then he'll be fine.

Honourable mentions...

Kwiatkowsi - he's going to get some serious playing time with Trevathan's injury. Does he have more to his game than we saw? Can he cover in certain circumstances. What is his range like? Looking forward to seeing it.

Literally any of the DBs Pace has drafted or signed up - calling Bush, Hall, Amos, Jackson, LeBlanc. Your time has come.

WindyCity said:

Agree on Massie, there is nothing there.

I am also concerned about Sitton's health/shape. He was heavy last year and had lots of problems with his legs.

Click to expand...

Josh Sitton gave up 6 hurries in 468 pass blocking snaps. Top pass pro guard in the league. Pace really lucked the fuck out there.