IST: Cubs @ Dodgers

chibears55

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This team is frustrating as fuck, how i miss the 2015 Cubs, yes 2015
It's pretty much what I was afraid would happen..

Pitching..
Lester and Hendricks figured it out..
Arrieta pressing in his FA year..
Lackey showing his age and should of retired..
5th spot going to end up being a revolving door..

Hitters..
Contreras Baez Russell Schwarber..
All showing their youth and inexperience to adjust and their all basically going through that sophomore slump..

Rizzo just having one of those hot and cold year so far, just can't get it going consistently..

Jay and Almora started out hot and seem to be victims of Maddon lineup juggling and can't get regular ABs to stay in rhythm..

Heyward looks a lot better then last year but still has bunch of hitless games..

Zobrist is pretty much done as a regular and looks better for a game or two after he has a few days off..

Bryant the only one who has figured it out and been consistent..


This is our 2017 chicago cubs and why I'm so glad they won it all last year..

If their going to have a chance to repeat, their going to need to make drastic change to rotation and hope the young hitters figure it out.

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CSF77

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I wouldn't tank the year away but I would play for next year and beyond. Getting Happ up made sense. Spending the year letting Schwarber adjust. Getting rid of Jake and John's contracts.

Right now I'm seeing it as Jake and John are just absorbing innings right now. If the O is up against league avg pitching they should wreck. Going against above avg pitching they most likely will lose.

Staff wise they need a staff ace. Jake was it in 2015. But it was a year early peak and then a fast fall off into a #4 starter. Yes Lackey is a year past his retirement. He got his ring and should have done what Ross did. Have fun.

Regardless, I see it as they are droping over 30 mil on those 2 and 6 mil on Anderson. Add in Jay and it pushes over 40 mil.

So they can resign Wade and go after a TOR in F/A.

I honestly believe they need 2 replacements in the rotation. I personally like Butler as the 5. If they would have gone forward with Montgomery we may have only needed a staff ace.

They still could end up using him. He went 4 innings and I wouldn't mind seeing a adjusted 6 man rotation. Keep Jon and Kyle on reg rest then rotate the rest.
 

A.C. Milan

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My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
It's pretty much what I was afraid would happen..

Pitching..
Lester and Hendricks figured it out..
Arrieta pressing in his FA year..
Lackey showing his age and should of retired..
5th spot going to end up being a revolving door..

Hitters..
Contreras Baez Russell Schwarber..
All showing their youth and inexperience to adjust and their all basically going through that sophomore slump..

Rizzo just having one of those hot and cold year so far, just can't get it going consistently..

Jay and Almora started out hot and seem to be victims of Maddon lineup juggling and can't get regular ABs to stay in rhythm..

Heyward looks a lot better then last year but still has bunch of hitless games..

Zobrist is pretty much done as a regular and looks better for a game or two after he has a few days off..

Bryant the only one who has figured it out and been consistent..


This is our 2017 chicago cubs and why I'm so glad they won it all last year..

If their going to have a chance to repeat, their going to need to make drastic change to rotation and hope the young hitters figure it out.

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I have no doubts that sooner or later the young hitters will heat up. The biggest issue for me is the starting rotation. Lackey is running out of gas, Hendricks is doing well but i don't know if he can be the number 2, Arrieta is not the same since the no hitter game in Cincinnati, he's just not the same, sometimes good, sometimes great, sometimes awful but i never know what to expect from him and the 5th spot in the rotation so far has been a total failure. I think that we will pull the trigger and make a move for an arm before the deadline
 

CSF77

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I have no doubts that sooner or later the young hitters will heat up. The biggest issue for me is the starting rotation. Lackey is running out of gas, Hendricks is doing well but i don't know if he can be the number 2, Arrieta is not the same since the no hitter game in Cincinnati, he's just not the same, sometimes good, sometimes great, sometimes awful but i never know what to expect from him and the 5th spot in the rotation so far has been a total failure. I think that we will pull the trigger and make a move for an arm before the deadline

They dont have the prospect trade weight right now. Last year it cost them 2 top 10 prospects to get a closer rental. This team is lacking a legit TOR.

Sometimes you pack it in. Last year they had a curse to bust and it happened. It was worth the deal. This year the team is not the same dominate team. So buying a rental expecting that person to fix the ship is faulty logic.

This team has more faults than just needing a Ace. They need some contact hitter types mixed in. The line up is strike out happy right now and have that going in general with the way Theo drafted. There is nothing wrong with some contact guys on The bench. Young in AAA liking his bat. Almora. Guys that put the ball in play more.

As it is this team takes itself out of games. 8 SO 1 BB 3 hits today. 2 shut outs in a row. Says a lot about the team make up.
 

chibears55

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This team has more faults than just needing a Ace. They need some contact hitter types mixed in. The line up is strike out happy right now and have that going in general with the way Theo drafted. There is nothing wrong with some contact guys on The bench. Young in AAA liking his bat. Almora. Guys that put the ball in play more.

As it is this team takes itself out of games. 8 SO 1 BB 3 hits today. 2 shut outs in a row. Says a lot about the team make up.


I was thinking about this earlier today but also with the shifts put on them...

Made me wonder if having guys like Rizzo Schwarber Bryant Heyward etc.. All these guys who are mainly power pull guys..
Wondered if maybe Theo and Jed would start looking more for contact hitters who can spray the ball around in the draft..

I can see having 1 or 2 guys that are dead pull hitters , but it seems like the Cubs have a whole lineup of them as it seems like every hitter has a shift on them..



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beckdawg

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I wouldn't tank the year away but I would play for next year and beyond.

Maybe I'm misreading your intent here but this seems like a pretty silly statement. They are 25-23. That's not "play for next year" territory. I suppose you could mean don't trade long term assets for short term rentals given where they are but I'm not really sure they would be doing that anyways. I didn't like the concept of trading premium prospects for a closer last year but they only did it because they had no other solutions out there. In terms of this year, they are going to need pitching headed into 2018 anyways and odds are both Archer, Quintana, and maybe even Gray will be available. Cubs certainly will have trouble getting Quintana but the other two are realistic. Also supposedly pitt might listen on Gerrit Cole. Would be a tough sell in division but he's quite interesting.

Regardless, this team isn't that far off. They just need to find their bats. They've set their bullpen up to be very productive in the playoffs. Davis and Edwards have been basically unhittable. Uehara has been a strong performer as has Montgomery save for a few bad outings. Rondon and Strop haven't quite been what they were early last year but they are the 4th or 5th choice and they were the closer/set up last year. Cleveland rode that sort of bullpen to the WS last year and I'd argue while the cubs starters haven't quite been where you'd like, they are still better than what Cleveland used to get to the WS.

Long story short, my take is essentially they have the pieces they need they just aren't all running smoothly. That's going to happen in baseball. But let's not act like they are some sort of abomination here. The bats even with several young players underperforming is 9th in baseball in batting fWAR. The cubs starters are 10th. Oddly their relievers are 14th though I'm guessing that has more to do with Grimm and Dunesing as well as some of the other guys called up because the long games they have played. And this is arguably the cubs floor for 2017 barring injury and they are still roughly on a 85 win pace. The cubs don't need to win 100 games. They need to get to the playoffs which they are 4 back in the WC and 0.5 back in division to the brewers of all teams. Anyone really think they will hold? And sure if it's July and Schwarber, Contreras and Russell all still aren't hitting then maybe you worry a bit but their performance in the first 2 months only matters so far as getting to the playoffs and you'd rather them be hot heading into the playoffs then to dominate april and may and go cold in September. Obviously there's no guarantee they get hot but are we really going to bet against them for a full season when by in large their underlying numbers don't support that sort of sustained failure?
 

beckdawg

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Also FWIW, in terms of starter ERA for teams, the cubs have the 14th best. Only NL teams better than the Cubs are Cards(3.17), Dbacks(3.41), Dodgers(3.56), Nats(3.78), and Rockies(4.03). Cubs are at 4.26 and that's with Anderson throwing 22.0 with an 8.18 ERA.
 

CSF77

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Maybe I'm misreading your intent here but this seems like a pretty silly statement. They are 25-23. That's not "play for next year" territory. I suppose you could mean don't trade long term assets for short term rentals given where they are but I'm not really sure they would be doing that anyways. I didn't like the concept of trading premium prospects for a closer last year but they only did it because they had no other solutions out there. In terms of this year, they are going to need pitching headed into 2018 anyways and odds are both Archer, Quintana, and maybe even Gray will be available. Cubs certainly will have trouble getting Quintana but the other two are realistic. Also supposedly pitt might listen on Gerrit Cole. Would be a tough sell in division but he's quite interesting.

Regardless, this team isn't that far off. They just need to find their bats. They've set their bullpen up to be very productive in the playoffs. Davis and Edwards have been basically unhittable. Uehara has been a strong performer as has Montgomery save for a few bad outings. Rondon and Strop haven't quite been what they were early last year but they are the 4th or 5th choice and they were the closer/set up last year. Cleveland rode that sort of bullpen to the WS last year and I'd argue while the cubs starters haven't quite been where you'd like, they are still better than what Cleveland used to get to the WS.

Long story short, my take is essentially they have the pieces they need they just aren't all running smoothly. That's going to happen in baseball. But let's not act like they are some sort of abomination here. The bats even with several young players underperforming is 9th in baseball in batting fWAR. The cubs starters are 10th. Oddly their relievers are 14th though I'm guessing that has more to do with Grimm and Dunesing as well as some of the other guys called up because the long games they have played. And this is arguably the cubs floor for 2017 barring injury and they are still roughly on a 85 win pace. The cubs don't need to win 100 games. They need to get to the playoffs which they are 4 back in the WC and 0.5 back in division to the brewers of all teams. Anyone really think they will hold? And sure if it's July and Schwarber, Contreras and Russell all still aren't hitting then maybe you worry a bit but their performance in the first 2 months only matters so far as getting to the playoffs and you'd rather them be hot heading into the playoffs then to dominate april and may and go cold in September. Obviously there's no guarantee they get hot but are we really going to bet against them for a full season when by in large their underlying numbers don't support that sort of sustained failure?

#1: Joe has kept Kyle in there. Add to it he has told him to ignore the numbers. He is playing the long term game with him. Not the short term.

#2: Even with the D being near the league lowest. They have not committed to Almora as the every day CF. They are even pushing Happ out there.

#3: Outside of Edwards and Wade the pen has been unpredictable.

#4: The O has been unstable.

#5: The pitching staff has gone back to the mean. Last year all 5 were having solid years.

Last year their D was the league best. The pitching put the ball into play into the league's best D. That is not the case this year.

The O was on more than off. We saw how last play offs how dependant they were on it. We are seeing it right now. They are wrecking the starters that are MOR quality and now they are going into some higher producing starters and the O gets shut down.+3

Now getting to your proposed trades. They feel very idealistic. In reality those teams are going to want a return package close to what the sox got from Sale. The Cubs only have 1 prospect that is top 25. Happ is a 2nd. But to gain A guy like Cole you are going to have to give up Eloy and either Happ or Baez. Add a top 3 arm in their system even to start talking to them.

Or they could just sit on the year and use their freed up resources to go after Yu Darvish. He will be 31 in Aug and would be a ideal option to go after. I can see the Cubs spending a equal deal to Lester. 6/155 mil. Then sit Darvish and Lester as the 1-2. Hendricks in as the 3. As a 4 you would want a lefty. I've liked Holland in F/A. I would prefer if they would push Montgomery into some starts this year. See if he would slot into the 4. He doesn't hit arb 1 until 2019 and to be honest the system just has no quality lefties. They have 3 quality righties.

So over all I really believe that any team gives up talent to save payroll when looking at trading for cheaper players vs signing a F/A. The Cubs are shedding 75 mil this offseason so this is not a issue at all. Except if they feel if they have 0% chance of landing Darvish then you have to think it over.



Hate to say this but if either Jake or John hit the DL and they let Montgomery start the team would be better off. Even if Montgomery didn't find success the loss is not huge and you have a better feel on the long term needs.
 

beckdawg

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Now getting to your proposed trades. They feel very idealistic. In reality those teams are going to want a return package close to what the sox got from Sale. The Cubs only have 1 prospect that is top 25. Happ is a 2nd. But to gain A guy like Cole you are going to have to give up Eloy and either Happ or Baez. Add a top 3 arm in their system even to start talking to them.

I fully expect any trade of that magnitude to cost 2 of Eloy/Baez/Happ plus probably 2 of something like Candelario/Zagunis/Clifton types. I don't see why that's idealistic. The fact of the matter is Candelario is certainly ready for the majors albeit not ready to play on a contending team. He needs to go out there and take his lumps. Baez and Happ also need to really play most days as well but one of the two really can't. And that's how you end up with the weird situation of Almora not getting his shots.

As for the rest of stuff you said it really comes down to the fact they don't have to add anything. Schwarber could find his swing and turn around tomorrow. Ditto for Russell/Contreras. If and when that happens it's like trading for an impact bat for nothing. That's what I mean when I say they already have the parts they need they just need to get them going right. Presumably if they make that big SP trade we've been waiting on for years you have released some of the roster tension. Almora/Jay can then play again more in CF which would help them defensively. Zobrist can play more easily at 2B. And they probably are going to make that sorta trade anyways in the offseason. Darvish seems more idealistic to me than a trade. Cubs haven't locked up any of their young core yet. Dumping a bunch of money into another starter is worrying. And even if they do sign Darvish, you're still left with a bunch of players who don't fit on the roster. You'd likely need to trade 1 or 2 guys anyways so if you can solve 2 problems at once why wouldn't you?

I think you'd rather trade for a starter be it now or in the offseason and then give the money you're talking about to Davis rather than Darvish and save some room to hopefully lock a few young guys up long term.
 

CSF77

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It is going to be 75 mil that they can add on. Even if they give Davis 15 mil per avg that leaves 60 mil. Lester gets a 2 mil bump. 58 mil. Arb rase for Bryant, Russell and Hendricks. Say they get 8 mil increase combined. 50 mil. That is 50 mil to cover 2-3rotation spots. Right now they are spending 35 mil to cover those spots.

So that is what I see. At most Darvish is going to get 25 mil AAV. He is the best on the market but he is not coming off a sub 2 ERA like Grenke did. Even then Grenke's deal was a albatross. So 25 mil spend 25 mil left for the 4-5 starters.

The 5th starter hits the pen in the play offs. The 4 doesn't factor until that the 2nd round. Hendricks is good enough to pitch in the first round. That is why I said Holland. He is good enough to slot into a 7 game series and has play off experience. He is worth 15 mil AAV. That leaves 10 mil to add elsewhere.


Now I do agree with the clustering going on and Javy makes the most sense to trade. But his net value is really low right now. Add to it Joe loves him and they have no back up SS option. Young in AAA has the ideal bat but his arm is stretched at 3B/SS. So I really don't see him as a UI.

So they would have to address a back up SS before concidering Javy.

Happ holds solid trade value but the question is if his playing value out weighs that. He seems like the most rounded hitter of the bunch and can cover most of the diamond at a avg level. I'm on the fence with dealing him. If it was Q is could get behind it due to no Cease LH type in the pipe. So that outweighs a bat.
 

chibears55

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Unless Lackey and Arrieta can all of a sudden put together a bunch of QS, and they can win more then they lose when the 5th spot of rotation on the mound..
This team is going to be basically. 500 all year.

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anotheridiot

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Could you imagine what Happs trade value would have been if they just sent him back down when he was hitting over .400 saying he needs at bats? League has film now and are adjusting. They are too afraid to put Heyward at leadoff, Happ is the next best option.

Schwarber is really pressing. That at bat last night where he was so ahead of the ball he was hitting home runs to the fans in the upper deck and then flailing at a curve ball with no mechanics whatsoever.

Buku trade value to the AL in the off season, now, not so much.
 

chibears55

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I agree with CSF..

There 40 games left til the break..
If this team between now and the break can't win more then 23 of those games, then besides pulling off a deal for a young controlled arm like Archer..
I'd just rather see them ride out the year, and just play the kids like Almora Happ Baez everyday and get ready for the off season and 2018.

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CSF77

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Could you imagine what Happs trade value would have been if they just sent him back down when he was hitting over .400 saying he needs at bats? League has film now and are adjusting. They are too afraid to put Heyward at leadoff, Happ is the next best option.

Schwarber is really pressing. That at bat last night where he was so ahead of the ball he was hitting home runs to the fans in the upper deck and then flailing at a curve ball with no mechanics whatsoever.

Buku trade value to the AL in the off season, now, not so much.

No one jumps at a prospect based off of numbers. They look at the quality of AB's to see where his is in development. The fact he is facing pitching in the majors and is avg 1 hit and a walk per game. And that hit is more likely a extra base hit than a single. That is what they will base his value on and it will only improve with time.

If anything teams would jump at him. Announcers on the Reds said he would have never passed on him in the first round. Seeing he was a local he would have gone there if the Cubs passed on him.
 

CSF77

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I agree with CSF..

There 40 games left til the break..
If this team between now and the break can't win more then 23 of those games, then besides pulling off a deal for a young controlled arm like Archer..
I'd just rather see them ride out the year, and just play the kids like Almora Happ Baez everyday and get ready for the off season and 2018.

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I doubt they make a mega trade. I'm figuring that they got a 1 year pass with the WS. That way they get Jake, John and Miguel's deals off of the books. They have Caritrini in AAA who looks really good as a back up catcher. Add to it he can play 1B when needed.

After that they decided to sign Anderson for 3.5 mil and traded for Mills and Butler vs retain or upgrade. Again it leads me to believe that they were going into the season half hearted.

Letting the staff start pitching late to make up for pitching another month. Again another instance of them not having that sense of urgency.

Add to it you look at SFG. They never went back to back. But they won 3 WS in a short span.

These guys kinda know what they are doing and there is nothing showing that they will push the panic button. Teams do not go back to back. It really doesn't happen. But what matters is getting Schwarber and Happ adjusted to the league right now.

If they are in it then they will most likely address the staff. Theo already said right now the focus is the draft. After the draft then teams decide if they are buys or sellers. That is when the market starts to take shape.
 

chibears55

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Off to a great start..
2 batters 2 hits
Let's see if they can get the big hit now and actually score a run

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chibears55

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Off to a great start..
2 batters 2 hits
Let's see if they can get the big hit now and actually score a run

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Nope...
Leave them stranded
Probably be the closest they come to scoring today..

Ace like Kershaw on mound , offense struggling..
Why not have Happ drop a bunt and try to safety squeeze the run home..

Only chance today is if Lester matches zeros with Kershaw

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chibears55

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That was a great AB by Contreras..
Battled and won big with an OPPO HR..

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