Jimmy Butler to the Twolves

clonetrooper264

Retired Bandwagon Mod
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Apr 11, 2009
Posts:
23,316
Liked Posts:
7,393
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  2. Golden State Warriors
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
Wilt played 48.5 mpg once...no one complained about him being run into the ground
 

clonetrooper264

Retired Bandwagon Mod
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Apr 11, 2009
Posts:
23,316
Liked Posts:
7,393
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  2. Golden State Warriors
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
The game was different than. Slower players. It was easier to defend. Now the game is faster and more free flowing.
Does this argument hold true for MJ and his perpetual 40+ mpg?
 

Alpha Male

Well-known member
Joined:
Sep 15, 2013
Posts:
3,971
Liked Posts:
1,634
Does this argument hold true for MJ and his perpetual 40+ mpg?

Yep. When mj was playing he was allowed to hand check. If he played in thibs defense he would probably blow out a knee. Mj is a good defender like jimmy and would go all out trying to defend in a faster game. Good coaches know of to manage their stars. thibs doesn't.
 

Crystallas

Three if by air
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
19,890
Liked Posts:
9,618
Location:
Next to the beef gristle mill
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bulls
Sometimes I wonder if people have actually watched a lot of older basketball. It's like saying more people today work in a faster paced world, because more people work in offices. Then equate that to people working harder today. Okay, go back 30 or 50 years, get a job at the mill and then say it's more work now.

It's all perpetuated myth. Based on nothing more than perception and very little half truths. Players back in the day were playing their ass off just like players now. If anything, this is a far more reserved and relaxed culture of professional sports where contact is minimized incrementally more and more over time.

Once the popularity of a sport exceeds a certain threshold, the competition is amazing across the board. The NBA has had legit talent since the 60s. The All-Stars of the 60s would compete with the all-stars today given the same advantages(shoes/gear, coaching tools like video and computing).

The best sports science theories on advancement still argue whether Jessie Owens would be the fastest man today, if he had the nutrition, starting blocks, shoes, and knowledge of today. Some say he might even be faster for one tremendously huge variable. The fact that his generation of men had a considerable amount more testosterone than the generations after. Sports started sorting out the correct genetic proportions to exceed in different abilities, and we have come a long way on that, but for the most part, basketball has been approximately the same aside from rule changes that have marginalized the center position, except players today have a lot less testosterone than just a few decades ago, and less than before.

So simply to say competition today is greater in any way over prior eras, is sorry, but a sheer display of ignorance and nothing but ignorance. It's essentially thinking you can educate yourself on basketball history by playing historical teams in NBA 2K video games and watching a few youtube videos.
 

Alpha Male

Well-known member
Joined:
Sep 15, 2013
Posts:
3,971
Liked Posts:
1,634
Sometimes I wonder if people have actually watched a lot of older basketball. It's like saying more people today work in a faster paced world, because more people work in offices. Then equate that to people working harder today. Okay, go back 30 or 50 years, get a job at the mill and then say it's more work now.

It's all perpetuated myth. Based on nothing more than perception and very little half truths. Players back in the day were playing their ass off just like players now. If anything, this is a far more reserved and relaxed culture of professional sports where contact is minimized incrementally more and more over time.

Once the popularity of a sport exceeds a certain threshold, the competition is amazing across the board. The NBA has had legit talent since the 60s. The All-Stars of the 60s would compete with the all-stars today given the same advantages(shoes/gear, coaching tools like video and computing).

The best sports science theories on advancement still argue whether Jessie Owens would be the fastest man today, if he had the nutrition, starting blocks, shoes, and knowledge of today. Some say he might even be faster for one tremendously huge variable. The fact that his generation of men had a considerable amount more testosterone than the generations after. Sports started sorting out the correct genetic proportions to exceed in different abilities, and we have come a long way on that, but for the most part, basketball has been approximately the same aside from rule changes that have marginalized the center position, except players today have a lot less testosterone than just a few decades ago, and less than before.

So simply to say competition today is greater in any way over prior eras, is sorry, but a sheer display of ignorance and nothing but ignorance. It's essentially thinking you can educate yourself on basketball history by playing historical teams in NBA 2K video games and watching a few youtube videos.

I never said the game was better. I just said it has changed for better or worse. It's much faster and harder to defend because of rule changes. For coaches like thibs that preach good defense for 48 minutes, that could wear players down.
 

Gustavus Adolphus

?‍♂️?
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Jun 15, 2010
Posts:
44,287
Liked Posts:
38,738
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Nebraska Cornhuskers
  2. Villanova Wildcats
I never said the game was better. I just said it has changed for better or worse. It's much faster and harder to defend because of rule changes. For coaches like thibs that preach good defense for 48 minutes, that could wear players down.

Are there coaches out there that don't want their teams to defend for the full 48?
 

clonetrooper264

Retired Bandwagon Mod
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Apr 11, 2009
Posts:
23,316
Liked Posts:
7,393
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  2. Golden State Warriors
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
Yep. When mj was playing he was allowed to hand check. If he played in thibs defense he would probably blow out a knee. Mj is a good defender like jimmy and would go all out trying to defend in a faster game. Good coaches know of to manage their stars. thibs doesn't.
And what exactly is it about Thibs defense that is so horrific for knees? Is it icing the pick and roll? Force players to the baseline? It can't just be chasing players around because that is not unique to Thibs. Does Klay Thompson not play defense as hard as Jimmy? Did Kawhi Leonard not play tough defense for an entire game?
 

Crystallas

Three if by air
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
19,890
Liked Posts:
9,618
Location:
Next to the beef gristle mill
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bulls
I never said the game was better. I just said it has changed for better or worse. It's much faster and harder to defend because of rule changes. For coaches like thibs that preach good defense for 48 minutes, that could wear players down.

It's the same for all teams. If a coach allows their player to take plays off, they hear about it and that player gets benched. Even the handful of players that are known for atrocious defense are still working on both sides and play a tremendous role on the team that it gets overlooked(pre-injury Rose used to take defense off, people would criticize Thibs a ton and Thibs would defend Rose for the very concerns you imply... or did you forget those days?). Being good on defense doesn't mean you need to give 100% on ever play, just like being good on offense you don't.

There is also a myth that the league is faster paced today. That is a bad conclusions from stat nerds who don't know how to formulate correctly. Higher score or higher shot output =/= faster pace. The league shoots more 3s now which ultimately is less work on both ends of the court. So players play less minutes and grind less in the paint. They shoot more 3s, because the leagues rules punish those who defend shooters. There is more spacing now and less contact. They even traded off official time outs for the drop in free throws to still get their commercial breaks. A lot of really smart people believe breaks are bad anyways for injuries and fatigue, so the league may still manipulate breaks further.

So really, the point still stands, if a coach runs their players into the ground in 2018, then why weren't nearly all coaches considered running their players into the ground 10/20/30 years ago for the exact same premise? The only nugget I can think of, is that men do produce less testosterone today, but then it's flat out lazy to single out one coach.
 

Alpha Male

Well-known member
Joined:
Sep 15, 2013
Posts:
3,971
Liked Posts:
1,634
Are there coaches out there that don't want their teams to defend for the full 48?

Yep. Lebron is a good defender, but in that cavs series in thibs last year there were times they put him on hinrich. Hinrich was no doubt the worst player on the bulls but they did that to give bron a break at times.
 

Alpha Male

Well-known member
Joined:
Sep 15, 2013
Posts:
3,971
Liked Posts:
1,634
It's the same for all teams. If a coach allows their player to take plays off, they hear about it and that player gets benched. Even the handful of players that are known for atrocious defense are still working on both sides and play a tremendous role on the team that it gets overlooked(pre-injury Rose used to take defense off, people would criticize Thibs a ton and Thibs would defend Rose for the very concerns you imply... or did you forget those days?). Being good on defense doesn't mean you need to give 100% on ever play, just like being good on offense you don't.

There is also a myth that the league is faster paced today. That is a bad conclusions from stat nerds who don't know how to formulate correctly. Higher score or higher shot output =/= faster pace. The league shoots more 3s now which ultimately is less work on both ends of the court. So players play less minutes and grind less in the paint. They shoot more 3s, because the leagues rules punish those who defend shooters. There is more spacing now and less contact. They even traded off official time outs for the drop in free throws to still get their commercial breaks. A lot of really smart people believe breaks are bad anyways for injuries and fatigue, so the league may still manipulate breaks further.

So really, the point still stands, if a coach runs their players into the ground in 2018, then why weren't nearly all coaches considered running their players into the ground 10/20/30 years ago for the exact same premise? The only nugget I can think of, is that men do produce less testosterone today, but then it's flat out lazy to single out one coach.

So what is your argumen? Injuries under thibs were just a mere coincidence and no fault of thibs? Less testosterone if it were true would not even lead to more injuries. Just more pussy players which I wouldn't disagree with since NFL and NBA are now pussified.
 

Crystallas

Three if by air
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
19,890
Liked Posts:
9,618
Location:
Next to the beef gristle mill
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bulls
So what is your argumen? Injuries under thibs were just a mere coincidence and no fault of thibs? Less testosterone if it were true would not even lead to more injuries. Just more pussy players which I wouldn't disagree with since NFL and NBA are now pussified.

My argument is simple. People can keep repeating something that is not true, but that doesn't make it true.

Weird how Taj and Aaron Brooks signed with the Wolves after being run into the ground in Chicago with Thibs. How Wiggins had a way out, but re-signed with Thibs. Players that feel like too much is on them will leave. That's why LeBron joined Wade and Bosh. Why KD joined a 73-win team. Noah and Rose oddly might rejoin Thibs, and both those guys are the short-sighted data-points that Thibs is the reason they are injury prone, despite both examples being heavily debunked by actual doctors and experienced sports scientists. If Thibs is that hard, players will go elsewhere. These guys don't dick around with their careers.

If the argument is, wait for x-player to go down with an injury, then blame their coach for the injury, that is a claim that needs to be backed up with fact, not speculation.

And the point about less testosterone is that testosterone aids in recovery. That was the only point that I will concede on being plausible, even though as mentioned, these players are still playing less minutes than prior generations. None of that has anything to do with playing anyone into the ground.
 

Alpha Male

Well-known member
Joined:
Sep 15, 2013
Posts:
3,971
Liked Posts:
1,634
My argument is simple. People can keep repeating something that is not true, but that doesn't make it true.

Weird how Taj and Aaron Brooks signed with the Wolves after being run into the ground in Chicago with Thibs. How Wiggins had a way out, but re-signed with Thibs. Players that feel like too much is on them will leave. That's why LeBron joined Wade and Bosh. Why KD joined a 73-win team. Noah and Rose oddly might rejoin Thibs, and both those guys are the short-sighted data-points that Thibs is the reason they are injury prone, despite both examples being heavily debunked by actual doctors and experienced sports scientists. If Thibs is that hard, players will go elsewhere. These guys don't dick around with their careers.

If the argument is, wait for x-player to go down with an injury, then blame their coach for the injury, that is a claim that needs to be backed up with fact, not speculation.

And the point about less testosterone is that testosterone aids in recovery. That was the only point that I will concede on being plausible, even though as mentioned, these players are still playing less minutes than prior generations. None of that has anything to do with playing anyone into the ground.

so why is thibs known for running his guys to the ground? In fact the first thing people did is blame thibs. Why would people even think that?
 

Crystallas

Three if by air
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
19,890
Liked Posts:
9,618
Location:
Next to the beef gristle mill
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bulls
so why is thibs known for running his guys to the ground? In fact the first thing people did is blame thibs. Why would people even think that?

Blame and victim culture. Rose was playing close out minutes in the playoffs, hurt his knee and everyone was like, 'He shouldn't have been out there', which is one of a few hindsight arguments. People didn't want to blame Rose for the longest time for a lot of his issues, they blamed Thibs instead who was completely hands off and even defended Rose, allowed him to play at his pace, etc. Thibs blame was not the fault of Rose either. It was just this mindset that had to blame someone. Up until people pointed out why Rose was hurt and it had nothing to do with Thibs, it had to do with Rose's fall mechanics and/or his inability to adjust his game.

You don't blow both your knees and keep telling yourself on whatever team you play for that you just gotta play your style. That is stupid, and now that hindsight it is clear to most of the former Rose defenders, none of them want to clear Thibs for slapping a BS label on him.

Keep in mind, this is the same caliber of intellect that blamed Thibs for Deng getting a spinal tap. Seriously, just think about that. Luol Deng had flu symptoms and some doctor convinced the front office and Deng himself that he might have something more serious, and Thibs gets the blame for playing him into the ground! That's some imagination. What did he do, log a lot of minutes in the regular season, and suddenly a lot of working out leads to viral meningitis?

So for a lot of stubborn fans, they stick to their guns and still, despite all the evidence in the world, want to STILL blame Thibs for that playoff ACL tear. Every lick of information doesn't matter. It's merely that initial data that they drew a conclusion on, and they don't have that part of the brain developed that allows them to reanalyze the scenario when given new data.

Burden of proof has to deal with the person making the accusation. So how about someone who claims Thibs runs his players into the ground either put up, or just shut up? Because it's not going to happen, and I explained why by applying this thing called extended data analysis(which attributes from more than one or two cherry picked stats to make a point).

Can we at least agree that the Thibs thing has been debunked, not just by me, but by nearly every former player that was asked about him. Heck, the guys that I can recall that were critical of Thibs, are the ones that he didn't give minutes too(shot chuckers like Niko). SO how the hell did he play guys into the ground that got no minutes? LOL see how the logic just fails at every turn? KAT can go down hurt next week, and it's going to be the same thing. Actually, bigs go down at a historically alarming rate, so odds are he will no matter who is pacing up and down the scorers table.
 

Gustavus Adolphus

?‍♂️?
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Jun 15, 2010
Posts:
44,287
Liked Posts:
38,738
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Nebraska Cornhuskers
  2. Villanova Wildcats
Someone here posted a video of Rose, and not that I necessarily buy the argument that was being presented, that took the position that Rose's own athleticism was his undoing. That eventually the way he played, and the way he landed, contributed more to his knee issues than anything.
 

Gustavus Adolphus

?‍♂️?
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Jun 15, 2010
Posts:
44,287
Liked Posts:
38,738
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Nebraska Cornhuskers
  2. Villanova Wildcats
Yep. Lebron is a good defender, but in that cavs series in thibs last year there were times they put him on hinrich. Hinrich was no doubt the worst player on the bulls but they did that to give bron a break at times.

Well first of all, Hinrich was far from the worst player on that team. Maybe he was the worst player getting minutes, maybe, but not the worst on that roster. Second, giving Lebron an easier assignment as far as who he was guarding is not the same as not asking him to defend for the full 48 minutes.
 

Gustavus Adolphus

?‍♂️?
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Jun 15, 2010
Posts:
44,287
Liked Posts:
38,738
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Nebraska Cornhuskers
  2. Villanova Wildcats
There's three or four videos like this, but I believe this is the one that was posted:

[video=youtube;S_rdO8OLHZo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_rdO8OLHZo[/video]
 

anotheridiot

Well-known member
Joined:
Jul 15, 2016
Posts:
5,935
Liked Posts:
799
so why is thibs known for running his guys to the ground? In fact the first thing people did is blame thibs. Why would people even think that?

well, look at the minutes played leaders in the NBA and you will usually see the thibbs guys on top of the list.

A team plays 48 minutes of defense, thibbs usually divided that up between 7 guys in chicago.
 

clonetrooper264

Retired Bandwagon Mod
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Apr 11, 2009
Posts:
23,316
Liked Posts:
7,393
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  2. Golden State Warriors
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
There's three or four videos like this, but I believe this is the one that was posted:

[video=youtube;S_rdO8OLHZo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_rdO8OLHZo[/video]
As I have seen similar videos about this, I am inclined to believe this argument. Poor biomechanics doomed Rose, not Thibs.
 

Top