Panarin traded to CBJ for Saad

anotheridiot said:

Problem is that Hossas deal this year is for 1 million dollars, where his cap hit for the next 4 years is 3.6 million due to the front loaded deal. The league does not like these deals and has outlawed them. Both Hossa and Keith are on these deals where we will have to count them against the cap for years after they are gone.

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HawkWriter said:

Cap hit is 5.275m

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Bingo HW. Hossa's cap hit is 5.275. If Hossa would retire from hereon out his recapture penalty would be 4.275M against the cap--3.6 was last sumnmer's recapture number.

Keith, if I'm reading this right has a recapture of $538,462 this summer every year until his contract is done. Next year that is 1.038M per year. Following is 2.038M, then 2.888M, then, 3.438M, and finally a shade over 4M.

The LTIR aspect is different...and I'm not sure of the specifics but I do know that the 'hawks are locked into the amount of players on the roster and the cap grace of Hossa's cap hit. So, right now according to CF, the 'hawks have a 23-man roster and are over the cap by a red cunt hair under 3M. Assuming that the roster *could* remain the same, all that means is that the 'hawks can bring in a single player to replace Hossa. They get a man grace and his cap grace. I'm not 100% versed in the minutae of the LTIR and the intricacies of how Hossa would work with it (according to this article: http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-blackhawks/why-placing-marian-hossa-long-term-injured-reserve-wouldnt-help-blackhawks-cap, if the 'hawks just got a 5.275M player they would "not be able to make any transactions"), but I think Stan will have a plan about it--if nothing else the option to bank cap for a good TDL acquisition if the stars play like stars this year.

*bump*

Just looking over this whole thread to show how badly it went with this trade.

Seems the guys on DeBrincat's court were right about him replacing the scoring, but he didnt really get the go with Kane, almost the same as Teuvo.

Thx for making me depressed

Lol at me thinking "Maybe Hossa comes back for a playoff run"

Oh I was so naive.

The point of the trade though wasn't short term talent advantage, I believe it was expected he would continue to be better and they wouldn't be able to afford him anyway and they wanted to get the most they could out of his value. So in order to fully evaluate we have to wait and see how much his next contract is for. I believe he's making the same as Saad right now, but his contract is over after next year? I think they extended him then traded him?

Edit, I am in now way saying this excuses the trade, as per the other thread, it's just another example of Stan thinking he's a genius and every move is golden. Not sure securing Saad for 2 extra years is worth losing breadman for 2 years, but whatever.

Fleeced!

Not surprisingly, a lot of people (myself included) were dead wrong on this deal. But I think a very surprising thing was that Kane apparently missed Panarin more than he missed Kane. Even more surprising than the scoring numbers are the +/-. Panarin +23 Kane -20 The Bread Man doesn't look to be the defensive liability he was made out to be.

I’m rooting for the Blue Jackets.

Adipost said:

I’m rooting for the Blue Jackets.

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Everyone loves BJ's.

MassHavoc said:

The point of the trade though wasn't short term talent advantage, I believe it was expected he would continue to be better and they wouldn't be able to afford him anyway and they wanted to get the most they could out of his value. So in order to fully evaluate we have to wait and see how much his next contract is for. I believe he's making the same as Saad right now, but his contract is over after next year? I think they extended him then traded him?

Edit, I am in now way saying this excuses the trade, as per the other thread, it's just another example of Stan thinking he's a genius and every move is golden. Not sure securing Saad for 2 extra years is worth losing breadman for 2 years, but whatever.

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I believe the 6 million was equal, but Panarins bonus money from his second season for being top 10 in scoring was 1.725 million, added to the schedule A bonus of 850K, his 812 base salary. The bonus did count against the cap. I am pretty sure they still had to carry that bonus money, but technically he was 8.575 to Saads 6.

So we lost him and he still counted for 2.575 against this years cap. I mean it had to right?

Remember Q flipped out the day Panarin was traded. He went ballistic at the next meeting, was escorted from the building.

Lets not forget too the expectations here in Chicago, and Bread Man had two shots and didn't win. It was perceived he was a stat machine made for regular season soft play(because the Blues defense before they traded their young star) and the Preds defense shut him down...we traded him for a "playoff warrior" whose game better suited the physical playoffs.

But the game also continues to shift with rules in favor of Panarin, not Saad. Though Saad should adapt with his speed.

Anyway...it sounds silly now, and you just don't trade the caliber of player Panarin is. I mean he hit 75 points with a slow start. Good god. But he displayed enough skills you clearly just don't trade him no matter what while he was here. We could have gave away every draft pick to move Seabrookes and it would have been worth it to retain Panarin. Its not that I"m bitter given what we have gotten, but its one of those "what could have been..."...like surely that was our chance to actually do something stupid like 5 cups for the core. lol

Meh.....doesn’t really matter, this team is getting worse before it gets better with either Panarin or Saad.

2022 is a long ways off, but at this juncture that looks to be our next potential window, and only then if the GM is both skilled and lucky.

I think this trade would have looked remotely good had Saad not underperformed and had he *actually* been able to sparkplug Toews.

The fact that Saad did underperform and Toews is probably beyond sparkplugging did things in. But I honestly think at absolute best, retaining Panarin would have put the team on-par with the 2016 squad until December: Panarin, Kane, and Crawford carrying the rest of the baggage.

After Crawford goes down though, there was no saving the team IMHO. The D was just so shitty that the only good thing you can say about them is they weren't the Isles.

On paper the move looked good even if Panarin was indeed what he turned out to be; we sacrifice a little O for a shot in the arm for D from FWDs what with our best defensive player being LTIR'ed, and what with losing our best defensive defenseman. I think most people figured Crawford would have to be stellar regardless.

I wouldn't read too much in the comparison between Kanes +/- and Panarin's. Kane could have been better but the Jackets had a defense that wasn't busy have an 82-game circle jerk in the backend leaving their netminders to fend for themselves. Panarin's +/- would have taken a nosedive as well if he had to deal with the 'hawks D as well.

That being said, I think I was wrong about this trade as well, but one thing that did come of it should be the 100% realization that the 'hawks need to stop getting Toews players who can help sparkplug him. Even though Toews' nutswingers will think otherwise, at this point the 'hawks should be trying to bolster Debrincat and Kane since, you know, they can actually produce.

LordKOTL said:

I think this trade would have looked remotely good had Saad not underperformed and had he *actually* been able to sparkplug Toews.

The fact that Saad did underperform and Toews is probably beyond sparkplugging did things in. But I honestly think at absolute best, retaining Panarin would have put the team on-par with the 2016 squad until December: Panarin, Kane, and Crawford carrying the rest of the baggage.

After Crawford goes down though, there was no saving the team IMHO. The D was just so shitty that the only good thing you can say about them is they weren't the Isles.

On paper the move looked good even if Panarin was indeed what he turned out to be; we sacrifice a little O for a shot in the arm for D from FWDs what with our best defensive player being LTIR'ed, and what with losing our best defensive defenseman. I think most people figured Crawford would have to be stellar regardless.

I wouldn't read too much in the comparison between Kanes +/- and Panarin's. Kane could have been better but the Jackets had a defense that wasn't busy have an 82-game circle jerk in the backend leaving their netminders to fend for themselves. Panarin's +/- would have taken a nosedive as well if he had to deal with the 'hawks D as well.

That being said, I think I was wrong about this trade as well, but one thing that did come of it should be the 100% realization that the 'hawks need to stop getting Toews players who can help sparkplug him. Even though Toews' nutswingers will think otherwise, at this point the 'hawks should be trying to bolster Debrincat and Kane since, you know, they can actually produce.

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Here's the thing though... you Say Saad underperformed, and Toews needed the sparkplug, but that's kind of rediculous. Saad shouldn't have to be a spark for the 10m center. Saad didn't underperform, he was cut at the knees by Toews. It's not on Saad to spark the captain, it's on the captain to play with the talent, so I'm not all in on the Saad underperforming part when he got stuck with underperforming Toews.

MassHavoc said:

Here's the thing though... you Say Saad underperformed, and Toews needed the sparkplug, but that's kind of rediculous. Saad shouldn't have to be a spark for the 10m center. Saad didn't underperform, he was cut at the knees by Toews. It's not on Saad to spark the captain, it's on the captain to play with the talent, so I'm not all in on the Saad underperforming part when he got stuck with underperforming Toews.

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I don't disagree: In no way, shape, or for should Toews need to be sparkplugged. But any fan has to be as naive ad Greg Brady if they think that Saad wasn't brought in at the expense of Panarin for that purpose.

But I still think Saad, as a 6M LW, under-performed even when saddled by Captain Vegetables. If a 37YO Hossa can put up better numbers when saddled with Marcus fucking Kruger, then a decade-younger Saad should be comparable with Toews--especially at that pay rate.

By my count there are exactly 2 players on the 'hawks squad who in every definition of the word didn't underperform this season: Crawford and Debrincat.

I still stand by my assertion at this point that Toews is going to be Toews and we should stop bringing in guys like Ladd and Saad to prop him up. We should be bringing in guys to bolster Debrincat and Kane, and we should bring in some players who can actually play defense.

LordKOTL said:

I don't disagree: In no way, shape, or for should Toews need to be sparkplugged. But any fan has to be as naive ad Greg Brady if they think that Saad wasn't brought in at the expense of Panarin for that purpose.

But I still think Saad, as a 6M LW, under-performed even when saddled by Captain Vegetables. If a 37YO Hossa can put up better numbers when saddled with Marcus fucking Kruger, then a decade-younger Saad should be comparable with Toews--especially at that pay rate.

By my count there are exactly 2 players on the 'hawks squad who in every definition of the word didn't underperform this season: Crawford and Debrincat.

I still stand by my assertion at this point that Toews is going to be Toews and we should stop bringing in guys like Ladd and Saad to prop him up. We should be bringing in guys to bolster Debrincat and Kane, and we should bring in some players who can actually play defense.

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I am not disagreeing with you on the first paragraph, on the second paragraph I still say Hossa isn't a fair comparison because he's a hall of famer who could perform with even captain vegetables if he had too... that's kind of his thing, he can perform anywhere, where Saad is a specific play style that was brought it to compliment captain vegetables. And it didn't work. He underperformed, but that's like saying a family doctor underperformed because all his patients came in with cancer and most of them died. I think he performed about as expected given the line around him. Sure, it didn't help and he probably should have played better, but it's probably just our definitions of underperformed that is lacking here. Toews underperformed, and I don't think you can represent Saad in the same light of underperformance as him.

To your last point, maybe they should have brought in guys long ago instead of revolving doors at center and leaning on Toews to prop the entire position up... but yeah I agree, can't just bring in guys you think is going to spark him, you have to find suitable alternatives to getting that production back.

MassHavoc said:

I am not disagreeing with you on the first paragraph, on the second paragraph I still say Hossa isn't a fair comparison because he's a hall of famer who could perform with even captain vegetables if he had too... that's kind of his thing, he can perform anywhere, where Saad is a specific play style that was brought it to compliment captain vegetables. And it didn't work. He underperformed, but that's like saying a family doctor underperformed because all his patients came in with cancer and most of them died. I think he performed about as expected given the line around him. Sure, it didn't help and he probably should have played better, but it's probably just our definitions of underperformed that is lacking here. Toews underperformed, and I don't think you can represent Saad in the same light of underperformance as him.

To your last point, maybe they should have brought in guys long ago instead of revolving doors at center and leaning on Toews to prop the entire position up... but yeah I agree, can't just bring in guys you think is going to spark him, you have to find suitable alternatives to getting that production back.

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True, there is a degree of underperformance that varies on the team from "not much" to "Duncan Keith". IMHO Saad did underperfrom even if he wasn't as bad as Toews, Keith, and Seabrook.



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One comment I found interesting (don't know which thread), was about the centers.

It was stated in incredulity that Toews, Smaltz, AA, Edjsell, Kampf would not be the answer at center next year in our plans?


Where is that other center going to come from? How will that be fixed and with our cap is that the area we need to spend resources fixing?

I am comfortable with Crawford/Forsberg/(Delia with Hogs as 3rd) next season. Not only did we spend 2018 vetting our goalies and gaining valuable experience for the one that stepped it up to at least an NHL back-up level, but we were able to expose ourselves, drop our pants down around the ankles, bend over and really expose ourselves and all the other issues on this team.

The Panarin move was first about his next contract. In hindsight we shipped him a year too soon if we wanted full value. Saad's struggles began in Columbus where he was sometimes sent to 4th line, and it is my opinion had we just waited them out Saad could have been re-acquired for far less, or with them paying us to take him back.

One of my initial reactions was why do we have to give up Panarin when they don't even want Saad?

I don't think the theory that Saad translates to the playoffs a little better than Panarin is completely insane...its just Panarin is so good now its kinda like...yeah but how could that guy NOT be a game changer?

For the second year in a row Panarin disappeared while his team lost 4 straight games. He started well, but that did happen in fairness. You could make up a narrative that Nashville knew how dangerous Panarin was being from our division and focused on him from the start.

Washington experienced what he was capable of but were able to shift strategy and take him out, ending Columbus's run despite them perhaps having the best goalie in the tourney. If I could pick one goalie for the future of Hawks it might well be Bob. (Vas or I have this theory that if they expand the goal size that Allen of the Blues will be the man in the league). Allen did not look as quick in 2018 playoffs as he did in 2017. In 2017playoffs Allen showed me some of the best goaltending I have ever witnessed. He was so quick and cat like accurate I actually suspected performance enhancing drugs, but when that hulk of a man is on fire there is no more imposing netminder, imo.

The skill sets of Crow and Vas suit the Lightning/Hawks style quite well. The back and forth wait for break out stuff we employ requires goalies who excel in the real time penalty shot situation. How many times have we seen Keith show up just in time with the tip of a stick to interfere with the process? This was the year losing that single step meant the tip of that stick was a tip short, and Crow wasn't there either...so doom.

I hope they bring in some fresh perspective and ideas for the coaching box, and also some fresh minds in the training staff.

Saad-Toews-Cat
Smaltz-Edjsell-Kane
-AA-Sikura
Kampf-Hino

Other than Edjsell I could see our core slotting this way. Who knows about him but he is still an unbalanced player who hasn't had time to upgrade his weaknesses. His strengths are impressive.

haha...in building lines it sucks not to have the fill all guy Hartman. You could just slot him anywhere and the versatility of his game had something to compliment everyone.

Am I remembering rightly that we have 2 first round picks? About 7 and 28? and 37?

For us, even the 37th pick is higher than our first dip half the time.


I'm not that worried about the defense, I think they filtered through a bunch of issues and development in 2018 season and our top 7-8 guys should know whats up in addition to having a couple young guys getting close. These guys are young and have potential to take steps. Gus I thought became a valuable player toward the end and won a top 6 role and powerplay time next season. That was my take on his last 10 games. At times he was actually the most dangerous offensive player on the ice not named Kaner. He broke out a couple highlight moves too, absolutely dusted several NHL players making them look stupid and silly and crowned them with heat on the net or his one track mind to get the puck to Kane. LOL....almost comical like his stick has GPS tracking of Kane, every pass he makes....kane....lol....


I blame Q for this because he doesn't reward "scoring chances" created...only production. The only way for Gus to make the team he decided is to get the puck to Kane and gather an assist. So every pass...another chance Kane will make the winning pass and he gathers an assist.

You can't run a team this way, it never makes sense to me and is the reason Hino kept getting sent down...simply because other guys couldn't finish his passes. He has been a creator every time he came up here, but until the hockey gods opened the gates he would just get sent down and this is something we have seen over and over. Guys come up, create chances...they don't finished and despite looking legit and playing well if the points aren't there for 3 games see ya.

wtf is that?

Still would have been nice to be able to keep Panarin. Shutting down one guy is still focusing on one guy and he was what actually got them to the playoffs, some 23 points in the final 16 games.

It was a genius move to get him and they gave him away for even money.

I still think they try to move AA before the draft. Hawks still have a 6.5% chance to win the lottery tonight on nbc at 630. Two other lotteries for second and third picks.

We have seen far too many kids get shipped back after not being able to adjust. I still say it was mostly a pissing contest with Bowmans and Q and Bowmans always got a betteran to plug in to a kids spot. Yes, Saad earned it, Panarin earned it, Cat earned it, but until we get a dangerous third line and a puck eating checking 4th line to tie up the other teams better defensive pairs, the top lines are always playing against top 4 defenders.

anotheridiot said:

Still would have been nice to be able to keep Panarin. Shutting down one guy is still focusing on one guy and he was what actually got them to the playoffs, some 23 points in the final 16 games.

It was a genius move to get him and they gave him away for even money.

I still think they try to move AA before the draft. Hawks still have a 6.5% chance to win the lottery tonight on nbc at 630. Two other lotteries for second and third picks.

We have seen far too many kids get shipped back after not being able to adjust. I still say it was mostly a pissing contest with Bowmans and Q and Bowmans always got a betteran to plug in to a kids spot. Yes, Saad earned it, Panarin earned it, Cat earned it, but until we get a dangerous third line and a puck eating checking 4th line to tie up the other teams better defensive pairs, the top lines are always playing against top 4 defenders.

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I don't think AA's NMC relaxes until July 1st.

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