We are going to regret trading Eloy Jiminez

cubsmann

New member
Joined:
Jun 16, 2016
Posts:
424
Liked Posts:
23
OK, so Quintana has basically sucked for his 4 starts with the Cubs. We gave up our number 1 prospect for this guy? Makes me question Theo and his willingness to mortgage the future for the present. I have seen Jiminez play and the guy is going to be a perennial all star. I don't mind trading Gleyber Torres for Chapman last year because that won us the World Series. At least we could have gotten a decent pitcher for the guy...Im telling u Jiminez will be the next Giacarlo Stanton. 40 HR, 100 RBI. If Theo is such a genius why didn't he pay Dexter Fowler the money he fucking deserved. And why does he give away one of the top prospects in the game?!!
 

beckdawg

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 31, 2012
Posts:
11,723
Liked Posts:
3,723
He wont be the next Stanton because Stanton can play RF and Jiminez is going to be a LFer. If you want to argue that's nitpicking fine but there's a vast difference in value between a LF who can hit and a RF who can hit. Also while I know a lot of people love to shit on Schwarber for a rough 2 month stretch to start 2017, he hit .334/.432/.619 in the minors with 38 HRs in 158 games. Incidentally he's also hit 38 HRs in 176 games in the majors so that part of his game is already here though obviously hitting .215/.328/.451, the average hasn't come with it though to be fair his walk rate is actually better. As a comparison to Jiminez, he has hit .300/.349/.498 in the minors with 43 HRs in 296 games.

So, if you're asking for an answer to "why" it's really that simple. They believe in Schwarber more. That was the case in the Andrew Miller talks when they wouldn't touch him but gave up Torres for Chapman as well. And contrary to the belief some hold here, there's plenty of reason to buy into that logic not the least of which is what Schwarber has done to great pitching in the playoffs.

As for Quintana, his numbers look almost identical to what he did in 2014 which was his best season other than a slightly elevated walk rate but that has also come with a 10+ k/9 which is fantastic. If people want to jump ship that's their choice but I see no reason to believe he's changed from one of the most valuable pitchers in baseball the past 3 years and he's on a fantastic contract.
 

beckdawg

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 31, 2012
Posts:
11,723
Liked Posts:
3,723
Also for what it's worth Fowler is hitting .264/.363/.484 this year. Cubs center fielders are hitting .265/.333/.422 between Happ with 129 ABs, Jay with 113, and Almora with 209. Heyward and Bryant chipped in with 37 and 3 respectively. Happ and Almora are obviously on rookie deals so are making around ~$1 mil combined. Jay's making $8 mil on a one year deal. Fowler makes $16.5 mil for this year and the next 4. Is he better than what the cubs have? Marginally. Is he worth almost twice as much given he's making nearly twice as much? No.
 

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
-1,272
Location:
Hell
beckdawg said:
He wont be the next Stanton because Stanton can play RF and Jiminez is going to be a LFer. If you want to argue that's nitpicking fine but there's a vast difference in value between a LF who can hit and a RF who can hit. Also while I know a lot of people love to shit on Schwarber for a rough 2 month stretch to start 2017, he hit .334/.432/.619 in the minors with 38 HRs in 158 games. Incidentally he's also hit 38 HRs in 176 games in the majors so that part of his game is already here though obviously hitting .215/.328/.451, the average hasn't come with it though to be fair his walk rate is actually better. As a comparison to Jiminez, he has hit .300/.349/.498 in the minors with 43 HRs in 296 games.

So, if you're asking for an answer to "why" it's really that simple. They believe in Schwarber more. That was the case in the Andrew Miller talks when they wouldn't touch him but gave up Torres for Chapman as well. And contrary to the belief some hold here, there's plenty of reason to buy into that logic not the least of which is what Schwarber has done to great pitching in the playoffs.

As for Quintana, his numbers look almost identical to what he did in 2014 which was his best season other than a slightly elevated walk rate but that has also come with a 10+ k/9 which is fantastic. If people want to jump ship that's their choice but I see no reason to believe he's changed from one of the most valuable pitchers in baseball the past 3 years and he's on a fantastic contract.
Click to expand...
My only disagreement with you is what the Cubs value Kyle now. They tried to trade Kyle in deals this year including in the Q deal, Hahn passed and wanted Cease instead.
 

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
-1,272
Location:
Hell
And the Cubs may still win the WS this year. They at least are headed to the playoffs again
 

beckdawg

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 31, 2012
Posts:
11,723
Liked Posts:
3,723
brett05 said:
My only disagreement with you is what the Cubs value Kyle now. They tried to trade Kyle in deals this year including in the Q deal, Hahn passed and wanted Cease instead.
Click to expand...

I strongly doubt it because all of the talk was that the cubs didn't want to touch their MLB roster. This front office has done a lot of unusual things with Kyle suggesting they believe in him more than a trade piece. It started obviously by promoting him to the majors before he even played a full season in the minors. Then you have him getting injured and them letting him help with draft prep in the mean while. And obviously then you have them letting him play in the WS after having not played all season.

People can have their opinion on Schwarber but I think people are vastly underrating what he can be based off an adjustment period that was sorta stunted by a year long injury. Players don't just hit .334/.432/.619 in the minors with 38 HRs in 158 games. I literally just gave the example of jiminez who's a top 10 prospect universally and top 5 in some people's minds. Bryant is probably the best prospect since the Harper/Trout call ups to come through the minors and he hit .327/.426/.667 in 181 games with 55 HRs. That's the type of bat your talking about with what Schwarber has done.

Regardless, if you disagree on that being Schwarber's ceiling it doesn't really matter because obviously the cubs think extremely highly about him. I mean seriously would any other team have hit any other player lead off in a similar situation to what Schwarber is? I mean sure if the guy is a prototypical lead off guy they would but the cubs org believed in him so much that they went totally against the grain on that one. Obviously that didn't work out as planned but again goes to their strong belief in what he is.
 
CSF77

CSF77

Well-known member
Joined:
Apr 16, 2013
Posts:
17,960
Liked Posts:
2,775
Location:
San Diego
Well if u are butt hurt u can change your tag to Whitesoxman
 

TC in Mississippi

CCS Staff
Joined:
Oct 22, 2014
Posts:
5,305
Liked Posts:
1,815
brett05 said:
My only disagreement with you is what the Cubs value Kyle now. They tried to trade Kyle in deals this year including in the Q deal, Hahn passed and wanted Cease instead.
Click to expand...

I don't believe they tried to trade Schwarber. I have read just the opposite. Plus his performance in the second half clearly makes that a non-issue now.

As far as Eloy goes, this is to cubsmann not to you Brett, he could be great or he could be Jorge Soler. I would think you'll see him up with the White Sox for the first time in late 2019 and we can argue about it then. We'll have 2 1/2 years of Quintana to evaluate then too. I do think he'll be a good player but there are no guarantees. Quintana will be fine. He's one of the most consistent pitchers in baseball and as we've said many times basically the same pitcher as Jon Lester who also has rough patches and always has.
 

beckdawg

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 31, 2012
Posts:
11,723
Liked Posts:
3,723
Also FWIW I can't imagine any serious scout suggesting they'd rather have Cease over Schwarber. That's not even a knock on Cease but he's an A ball pitcher with a history of arm injuries. He's interesting but there's no sure things in pitching prospects and Cease would be high risk even on a pitching scale because of the injury but also the fact he's yet to truly show the command you want out of a starter and he's not really built like your prototypical "ace." He's on the smaller side which often makes teams think of pitchers like him as closers(see Carl Edwards though Cease is a bit bigger than him).

And Schwarber prior to being called up was a top 10 prospect despite having questionable position issues. I can't imagine any team seriously giving up on the scouting based on a guy struggling in his first go around. That's how loud his bat tools were and frankly still are. All of 13 people last year hit 38+ HRs. Schwarber's also done that with a 13.0% walk rate in his roughly first "season" in the majors. There's really only 4 bats that approached that last year. Edwin Encarnacion with 42 HRs and a 12.4% walk rate(hit .263/.357/.529), David Ortiz at .315/.401/.620 38 HRs and 12.8%, Chris Davis at .221/.332/.459 38 HRs and 13.2 % and Josh Donaldson at .284/.404/.549 with 37 HRs and 15.6%. And interestingly all 4 of those guys took a long while to establish themselves. The Twins released Ortiz and he didn't make waves til 27 with the Red Sox. The Rangers traded Davis who also didn't make waves til 27 with the O's. I believe Encarnacion was a throw in piece in a trade from the reds but who also didn't make an impact until he was 29. And in the case of Donaldson he was a throw in piece from the cubs who.... you guessed it hit his stride at age 27.

I have to believe all the people complaining about Schwarber just are young and don't understand the game because there's a myriad of examples of guys who became stars struggling with a similar profile to Schwarber but there's relatively few examples of guys with his set of tools not eventually getting it. Like Chris Carter is probably the worst you can throw against Schwarber but he hit .282/.377/.534 in the minors so again we're not even talking about someone on the same level.
 
Diehardfan

Diehardfan

Well-known member
Joined:
Jun 10, 2010
Posts:
9,264
Liked Posts:
6,685
Location:
Western Burbs
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
brett05 said:
My only disagreement with you is what the Cubs value Kyle now. They tried to trade Kyle in deals this year including in the Q deal, Hahn passed and wanted Cease instead.
Click to expand...

Brett, people can say anything they want. Let's see some proof of that. All I've ever heard is that Schwarber was a piece of he Cub's core and those players were off limits on trades.
 

TC in Mississippi

CCS Staff
Joined:
Oct 22, 2014
Posts:
5,305
Liked Posts:
1,815
beckdawg said:
Also FWIW I can't imagine any serious scout suggesting they'd rather have Cease over Schwarber. That's not even a knock on Cease but he's an A ball pitcher with a history of arm injuries. He's interesting but there's no sure things in pitching prospects and Cease would be high risk even on a pitching scale because of the injury but also the fact he's yet to truly show the command you want out of a starter and he's not really built like your prototypical "ace." He's on the smaller side which often makes teams think of pitchers like him as closers(see Carl Edwards though Cease is a bit bigger than him).

And Schwarber prior to being called up was a top 10 prospect despite having questionable position issues. I can't imagine any team seriously giving up on the scouting based on a guy struggling in his first go around. That's how loud his bat tools were and frankly still are. All of 13 people last year hit 38+ HRs. Schwarber's also done that with a 13.0% walk rate in his roughly first "season" in the majors. There's really only 4 bats that approached that last year. Edwin Encarnacion with 42 HRs and a 12.4% walk rate(hit .263/.357/.529), David Ortiz at .315/.401/.620 38 HRs and 12.8%, Chris Davis at .221/.332/.459 38 HRs and 13.2 % and Josh Donaldson at .284/.404/.549 with 37 HRs and 15.6%. And interestingly all 4 of those guys took a long while to establish themselves. The Twins released Ortiz and he didn't make waves til 27 with the Red Sox. The Rangers traded Davis who also didn't make waves til 27 with the O's. I believe Encarnacion was a throw in piece in a trade from the reds but who also didn't make an impact until he was 29. And in the case of Donaldson he was a throw in piece from the cubs who.... you guessed it hit his stride at age 27.

I have to believe all the people complaining about Schwarber just are young and don't understand the game because there's a myriad of examples of guys who became stars struggling with a similar profile to Schwarber but there's relatively few examples of guys with his set of tools not eventually getting it. Like Chris Carter is probably the worst you can throw against Schwarber but he hit .282/.377/.534 in the minors so again we're not even talking about someone on the same level.
Click to expand...

People forget that Schwarber's value has always been as a hitter and that he's just in the last month reached a season's worth of PA. He has work to do but what I really like about this kid is his drive. Doubt him at your own peril.
 

PickSix

Well-known member
Joined:
Mar 9, 2015
Posts:
2,673
Liked Posts:
1,459
cubsmann....you rile these guys up and jump ship on the thread?
You get your ass back in here and have at it.
 
Diehardfan

Diehardfan

Well-known member
Joined:
Jun 10, 2010
Posts:
9,264
Liked Posts:
6,685
Location:
Western Burbs
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
TC in Mississippi said:
People forget that Schwarber's value has always been as a hitter and that he's just in the last month reached a season's worth of PA. He has work to do but what I really like about this kid is his drive. Doubt him at your own peril.
Click to expand...

And call me crazy....but with every game he plays in left, he looks better to me. He'll never win a GG but if he hits like he's capable....he doesn't have to.
 
Diehardfan

Diehardfan

Well-known member
Joined:
Jun 10, 2010
Posts:
9,264
Liked Posts:
6,685
Location:
Western Burbs
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
PickSix said:
cubsmann....you rile these guys up and jump ship on the thread?
You get your ass back in here and have at it.
Click to expand...

His history precedes him, Pick. It's a ritual actually....he comes here starts thread laced with stupidity or just makes a dumbass comment....everyone jumps all over him and he disappears. Usually for weeks at a time.
 
zack54attack

zack54attack

Bears
Staff member
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Apr 16, 2010
Posts:
18,638
Liked Posts:
7,649
Location:
Forest Park
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Fire
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
  1. North Carolina Tar Heels
brett05 said:
And the Cubs may still win the WS this year. They at least are headed to the playoffs again
Click to expand...

This.

And they are in a position to at least compete for a playoff spot for 5-7 years.
 

cubsmann

New member
Joined:
Jun 16, 2016
Posts:
424
Liked Posts:
23
TC in Mississippi said:
I don't believe they tried to trade Schwarber. I have read just the opposite. Plus his performance in the second half clearly makes that a non-issue now.

As far as Eloy goes, this is to cubsmann not to you Brett, he could be great or he could be Jorge Soler. I would think you'll see him up with the White Sox for the first time in late 2019 and we can argue about it then. We'll have 2 1/2 years of Quintana to evaluate then too. I do think he'll be a good player but there are no guarantees. Quintana will be fine. He's one of the most consistent pitchers in baseball and as we've said many times basically the same pitcher as Jon Lester who also has rough patches and always has.
Click to expand...

I hope you're right. And its true the guy hasn't done anything in the MLB but he's only 20 and he has destroyed competition all over in every level he has played at.
I was watching the guy hit the ball into the lights and it was freaking amazing!! He's a freak the like of which we see in only the top fllite elite players. And he was OURS!!!
 

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
-1,272
Location:
Hell
beckdawg said:
I strongly doubt it because all of the talk was that the cubs didn't want to touch their MLB roster. This front office has done a lot of unusual things with Kyle suggesting they believe in him more than a trade piece. It started obviously by promoting him to the majors before he even played a full season in the minors. Then you have him getting injured and them letting him help with draft prep in the mean while. And obviously then you have them letting him play in the WS after having not played all season.

People can have their opinion on Schwarber but I think people are vastly underrating what he can be based off an adjustment period that was sorta stunted by a year long injury. Players don't just hit .334/.432/.619 in the minors with 38 HRs in 158 games. I literally just gave the example of jiminez who's a top 10 prospect universally and top 5 in some people's minds. Bryant is probably the best prospect since the Harper/Trout call ups to come through the minors and he hit .327/.426/.667 in 181 games with 55 HRs. That's the type of bat your talking about with what Schwarber has done.

Regardless, if you disagree on that being Schwarber's ceiling it doesn't really matter because obviously the cubs think extremely highly about him. I mean seriously would any other team have hit any other player lead off in a similar situation to what Schwarber is? I mean sure if the guy is a prototypical lead off guy they would but the cubs org believed in him so much that they went totally against the grain on that one. Obviously that didn't work out as planned but again goes to their strong belief in what he is.
Click to expand...

It wasn't just the White Sox that the Cubs offered Kyle up for. We won't know one way of the other unless Theo confesses, but the smoke was very heavy and usually when that's the case, there's truth behind it. I have no doubt about it. That doesn't mean Kyle can't be a decent player long term. The value just isn't there and now Theo knows that too.
 

beckdawg

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 31, 2012
Posts:
11,723
Liked Posts:
3,723
brett05 said:
It wasn't just the White Sox that the Cubs offered Kyle up for
Click to expand...

You're going to have to back this up with some sources man. I'm about as in the loop on cubs news as it gets and I never heard one credible rumor that the cubs were even considering dealing Schwarber. And when I say that i follow the cubs obsessively I mean it. I literally check the box scores of all their minor league teams daily. And more to the point, Theo has never been someone who blew smoke screen. Prior to signing Heyward he talked about wanting to improve the cubs outfield defense. There's other examples of him being a straight shooter but he had said the cubs had no interest in dealing from their major league team of which Schwarber obviously was a part.

I flat out don't buy it. I'm sure there was some talk that if the cubs wanted to get someone like Archer they probably had to include someone like Schwarber. I'd buy that but that's an entirely different case than saying the cubs offered Schwarber to multiple teams.
 

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
-1,272
Location:
Hell
beckdawg said:
You're going to have to back this up with some sources man. I'm about as in the loop on cubs news as it gets and I never heard one credible rumor that the cubs were even considering dealing Schwarber. And when I say that i follow the cubs obsessively I mean it. I literally check the box scores of all their minor league teams daily. And more to the point, Theo has never been someone who blew smoke screen. Prior to signing Heyward he talked about wanting to improve the cubs outfield defense. There's other examples of him being a straight shooter but he had said the cubs had no interest in dealing from their major league team of which Schwarber obviously was a part.

I flat out don't buy it. I'm sure there was some talk that if the cubs wanted to get someone like Archer they probably had to include someone like Schwarber. I'd buy that but that's an entirely different case than saying the cubs offered Schwarber to multiple teams.
Click to expand...

It was the talk of Chicago Sports Radio in June and July. I want to say IIRC that the Cubs offered in a feeler deal with the Tigers as well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

10,882members
93,055threads
4,374,188posts
397online users

Members online NOW

  • Member
  • Admin
  • Mod
  • Donor
  • HOF
Total: 397 (members: 45, guests: 352)

Staff online NOW

Top