HOF 2018 Ballot

beckdawg

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 31, 2012
Posts:
11,722
Liked Posts:
3,723
FTR, myth

What parts a myth? I mean i have heard stories that basically there was some writer who hated him and made him out to be worse than he was(think it was on a radio lab podcast but not sure). But there's no doubting the dude slide spikes up into bases and went into the stands. Either way, even if Cobb was an angel that wasn't really my point. My point was there's always going to be assholes in the league that play up to and probably across the line.

What bugs me is that baseball has literally from the beginning been a game about cheating. The old adage if you ain't cheatin you ain't tryin comes to mind. Whether it was stealing signs or altering the ball that stuff happened for decades prior to HGH. And then you have the fact that players prior to Jackie Robinson didn't play with blacks and players prior to the latin explosion didn't play with another large source of talent. I guess what i'm trying to say here is people who are against steroid users being in the hall seem to think that prior to them that everyone in the hall of fame was pure and that their numbers were "real." But you can easily dismantle that debate. I mean the whole reason 61 had an asterisk for such a long time was because it was playing in a different set of rules.

At the end of the day, the game changes. So comparing players from the 2000's to players from the 70's or 50's is stupid. It's an entirely different game. If the hall of fame is a place about numbers and records(which let's be honest is how writers vote) then how the hell do you leave out the guys of their generation with the best numbers? If it's about people who made the sport interesting, how do you leave out the players that literally brought the game back from the dead after the strike? If it's about representing the best of baseball then why are players like Lofton never going to make it in?

Really think the debate comes down to old players being jealous their numbers are eclipsed. But that's what happens.
 

beckdawg

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 31, 2012
Posts:
11,722
Liked Posts:
3,723
I thought HGH and ANDRO were the same? I agree with Beckdawg, once the public knew, outcry came about

Think andro is some form of testosterone and HGH is different. But in essence they both were banned at some point I believe. Pretty sure at the time you could get andro at GNC and places like that because it wasn't quite steroids but had similar effects. But pretty sure it's banned now. Either way like you said, if you just looked at the size of players you should know what is going on. I mean this was prior to the nerd revolution in baseball. So many of these scouts had been doing it for decades. If they didn't realize players were abnormally big then their naive.
 

TC in Mississippi

CCS Staff
Joined:
Oct 22, 2014
Posts:
5,305
Liked Posts:
1,815
Think andro is some form of testosterone and HGH is different. But in essence they both were banned at some point I believe. Pretty sure at the time you could get andro at GNC and places like that because it wasn't quite steroids but had similar effects. But pretty sure it's banned now. Either way like you said, if you just looked at the size of players you should know what is going on. I mean this was prior to the nerd revolution in baseball. So many of these scouts had been doing it for decades. If they didn't realize players were abnormally big then their naive.

I'm not sure when you think fans jumped on but I was screaming about Sammy Sosa to whoever would listen before the Sosa/McGwire HR race and I was ready to jump the Cubs ship right about then because some people were in denial. I hated Sosa with a passion. Terry Boers on the Score was condemning PED use as early as 1995 and Frank Thomas was an outspoken player about the need for testing. The story didn't just emerge one day, although I agree that most of the media was more enthralled by the numbers than the fact that these guys were damaging the game.
 

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
-1,272
Location:
Hell

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
-1,272
Location:
Hell
At the end of the day, the game changes. So comparing players from the 2000's to players from the 70's or 50's is stupid. It's an entirely different game. If the hall of fame is a place about numbers and records(which let's be honest is how writers vote) then how the hell do you leave out the guys of their generation with the best numbers? If it's about people who made the sport interesting, how do you leave out the players that literally brought the game back from the dead after the strike? If it's about representing the best of baseball then why are players like Lofton never going to make it in?

This right here. One of the best summations that I have read on the topic. Cheating is part of the game. So is punishment. Punishment by the LEAGUE, not the WRITERS.
 

beckdawg

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 31, 2012
Posts:
11,722
Liked Posts:
3,723
I'm not sure when you think fans jumped on but I was screaming about Sammy Sosa to whoever would listen before the Sosa/McGwire HR race and I was ready to jump the Cubs ship right about then because some people were in denial. I hated Sosa with a passion. Terry Boers on the Score was condemning PED use as early as 1995 and Frank Thomas was an outspoken player about the need for testing. The story didn't just emerge one day, although I agree that most of the media was more enthralled by the numbers than the fact that these guys were damaging the game.

I mean that's probably fair that there were some speaking out about it but not nearly enough. But again I think that sort of illustrates a point though that if you and some in the media were talking about it why wasn't MLB and the players? I don't know a lot of this is weird. It honestly feels like a lot of writers are now overreacting because they were fooled and feel cheated. I mean if you look at this from the player's perspective, no one at the time was coming out strong against it. And MLB wasn't saying anything. So, teams/mlb may as well have been saying this is how you get that big money contract you want.

What drives me nuts is that after the fact they just burn those players that did what they had to do to make the money. To me I think the distinction to make is players who did it prior to testing and players caught after testing. If you wanna jump on Manny or Arod who got caught for doing it fine. But what irritates me is that writers are throwing a moral argument into a legality argument. Andro wasn't illegal at the time AFAIK. HGH AFAIK wasn't illegal. Morally is it questionable to use it? Sure. But it's also morally questionable to throw at a guys head and plenty of pitchers have done that. What matters is whether or not something was legal both in the US and in baseball. And like with Amphetamines was that morally questionable, in hindsight sure. Was it the culture of baseball at the time? Absolutely.
 

TC in Mississippi

CCS Staff
Joined:
Oct 22, 2014
Posts:
5,305
Liked Posts:
1,815
I mean that's probably fair that there were some speaking out about it but not nearly enough. But again I think that sort of illustrates a point though that if you and some in the media were talking about it why wasn't MLB and the players? I don't know a lot of this is weird. It honestly feels like a lot of writers are now overreacting because they were fooled and feel cheated. I mean if you look at this from the player's perspective, no one at the time was coming out strong against it. And MLB wasn't saying anything. So, teams/mlb may as well have been saying this is how you get that big money contract you want.

What drives me nuts is that after the fact they just burn those players that did what they had to do to make the money. To me I think the distinction to make is players who did it prior to testing and players caught after testing. If you wanna jump on Manny or Arod who got caught for doing it fine. But what irritates me is that writers are throwing a moral argument into a legality argument. Andro wasn't illegal at the time AFAIK. HGH AFAIK wasn't illegal. Morally is it questionable to use it? Sure. But it's also morally questionable to throw at a guys head and plenty of pitchers have done that. What matters is whether or not something was legal both in the US and in baseball. And like with Amphetamines was that morally questionable, in hindsight sure. Was it the culture of baseball at the time? Absolutely.

Honestly my biggest problem with it was the players that didn't use that were hurt. I had friends working in various aspects of the game at that time and they spoke of fringe players that didn't make rosters because 38 year olds were taking PEDs to stay in the bigs. By not making rosters these guys didn't get MLB pensions and we're not talking about millionaires here. Fred McGriff was a vocal critic of the PED culture and likely won't make teh HoF by the slimmest of margins. If PED users get in on a regular basis the message to McGriff is that "hey man, you should have used". I've grown too weary to really fight this battle anymore though. It's done, the game has moved on from the most blatant of the PED use (I don't think it can ever be completely eliminated) and I think MLB is better for it. I didn't used to think this but most people seem to think that the primary purpose of the HoF is as a museum and with that as the criteria I say let them all in. The history of the game contains the good bad and the ugly and it should all be represented. Just don't pretend that it's an exclusive fraternity anymore and maybe that was always just a romanticized notion anyway.
 

beckdawg

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 31, 2012
Posts:
11,722
Liked Posts:
3,723
Honestly my biggest problem with it was the players that didn't use that were hurt. I had friends working in various aspects of the game at that time and they spoke of fringe players that didn't make rosters because 38 year olds were taking PEDs to stay in the bigs. Fred McGriff was a vocal critic of the PED culture and likely won't make teh HoF by the slimmest of margins. If PED users get in on a regular basis the message to McGriff is that "hey man, you should have used". I've grown too weary to really fight this battle anymore though. It's done, the game has moved on from the most blatant of the PED use (I don't think it can ever be completely eliminated) and I think MLB is better for it. I didn't used to think this but most people seem to think that the primary purpose of the HoF is as a museum and with that as the criteria I say let them all in. The history of the game contains the good bad and the ugly and it should all be represented. Just don't pretend that it's an exclusive fraternity anymore and maybe that was always just a romanticized notion anyway.

Obviously that's not an unreasonable feeling(re fringe guys) but to apply that logic, think of all the negro league players no one knows who we probably should. Even big names like Josh Gibson are often unknown to casual fans. And I guess to me that's often a case with success. People who are willing to do things that others aren't are usually the ones who get the biggest rewards but far to often suffer the worst as well. You hear the stories about guys who start a business out of their garage that becomes amazon but not the countless examples of people who failed. And with regard to HGH/Steroid users we still don't know what the long term effects are. These players may literally have cut years off their life.
 

FirstTimer

v. 2.0: Fully Modded
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
May 4, 2010
Posts:
27,077
Liked Posts:
15,163
Barry Bonds *Broke the rules with drugs, too bad, was a HOFer before drug use so No.
Chris Carpenter *No
Roger Clemens *Should be in, never found to take drugs
Johnny Damon *Solid, but he's with Konerko on the outside looking in
Vladimir Guerrero *100% in
Livan Hernandez* No
Trevor Hoffman* 100% in. Suffers because he was a Padre
Orlando Hudson* My kids have his jersey...No
Aubrey Huff* Awesome Twiiter, but no
Jason Isringhausen* No
Andruw Jones * Tough one. Played in a hitters friendly park. Does not pass the eye test for me. Konerko for me.
Chipper Jones *Yes
Jeff Kent *Yes, his numbers are as good or better than all other 2b men.
Carlos Lee* No
Brad Lidge* No
Edgar Martinez* Konerko
Hideki Matsui *No
Fred McGriff* Yes, his numbers are there and he's been given credit to be all natural
Kevin Millwood* No
Jamie Moyer* Konerko
Mike Mussina* Konerko
Manny Ramirez *Multiple rule breaker with drugs, No
Scott Rolen * Yes
Johan Santana *Should he get the Koufax treatment? I'm on the fence.
Curt Schilling * Yes
Gary Sheffield * Yes, never found guilty of drugs, right?
Sammy Sosa *Again never found guilty of drugs, YES
Jim Thome *Yes
Omar Vizquel *Tough one. I'm on the fence
Billy Wagner* I said yes last year. I am still a yes
Larry Walker * Yes, he benefitted from Coors, but played well elsewhere.
Kerry Wood * No
Carlos Zambrano * No

That's 13. So since it was asked to be 10...I eliminate Sheffield, Wagner, Walker

This is the worst ballot I have ever seen......What is this idiotic Konerko standard?

Uhm, HGH was done in the open. A reporter commented on it in McGwire's locker.
That was Andro..and they were not the same thing.
 

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
-1,272
Location:
Hell
The tracker now has 15 ballots and early returns looks like this could be a record class.
 

anotheridiot

Well-known member
Joined:
Jul 15, 2016
Posts:
5,935
Liked Posts:
799
the record if THIS is a record class is how insignificant "nice" ball players are considered hall of famers.
 

anotheridiot

Well-known member
Joined:
Jul 15, 2016
Posts:
5,935
Liked Posts:
799
Who would be your ballot?

off of that list, maybe only Chipper Jones, just because they let Santo in. Schilling his his bloody sock in there, just the same as Sosa has his home run bat in there.
 

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
-1,272
Location:
Hell
off of that list, maybe only Chipper Jones, just because they let Santo in. Schilling his his bloody sock in there, just the same as Sosa has his home run bat in there.

So no to Bonds, Clemens, Thome, Vlad among others? So fo ryou the Hall should be an elite group of some 30-50 folks like TC, yes?
 

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
-1,272
Location:
Hell
With 26 votes revealed, one player has gotten them all....Jim Thome. No doubt about his candidacy for me, but he's not an elite when compared to the others. I think him being arguably one of the nicest guys to ever play the game and his good will post career has helped him get such a high percentage.
 

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
-1,272
Location:
Hell
Nice to see Jack Morris and Alan Trammell finally get selected for the Hall of Fame
 

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
-1,272
Location:
Hell
39 ballots in and we have:
Thome 97.4%
Chipper 94.9%
Vlad 89.7%
Edgar 82.1%
Hoffman 79.5%

Mussina, Bonds, Clemens all over 65% but on the outside looking in right now.
 

anotheridiot

Well-known member
Joined:
Jul 15, 2016
Posts:
5,935
Liked Posts:
799
well, chipper had a nice career, and when the bar was lowered with Santo, they all will get in now.

Not once would I have considered Jim Thome a first ballot hall of famer.
 

CSF77

Well-known member
Joined:
Apr 16, 2013
Posts:
17,955
Liked Posts:
2,775
Location:
San Diego
well, chipper had a nice career, and when the bar was lowered with Santo, they all will get in now.

Not once would I have considered Jim Thome a first ballot hall of famer.

Roids kinda skewed the numbers. It feels like they are sifting through the players and trying to find the legit ones right now. If that era never happened then we would have more options. I personally believe Bonds is HOF regardless and he basically saw what was happening and figured get on the bus or get left behind. Jr was legit and most likely the most gifted of his generation. Sosa and Mac were juicing. No doubt about it.
 

Top