OT: Is Eli Manning a HOFer?

LiverpoolBearsFAn

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Career passer rating of 83.8 in the age of a very quarterback friendly game? Its not much different to Cutler.

Not HOF for me.
 

Visionman

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I have always considered Eli Manning a luckier Jay Cutller and a big reason I never gave up on Jay. Cutler could have easily been Eli with a little luck.

That's true...but luck is not a sound strategy for winning.
 

FirstTimer

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It was a small pond with much lesser players for its first several years.

That doesn't mean the talent was inferior............You're not even supporting your own argument at this point.

You then completely avoided the subject of all the losing years with the Jets after that 1 upset
I didn't avoid it. The Jets weren't great after SB III. Namath had very good 1972 and 1974's. I'm evaluating Namath. Not the Jets.


NFL didn't fear the AFL passing them.
They absolutely did. If the AFL could get NFL players then the AFL could in fact pass the NFL.

You can't even form a cohesive argument.

"The NFL wasn't worried about getting passed up...it was just worried about losing all it's best players....."

:aj:


They did fear it was inferior.
No, the NFL did not. Have you read ANYTHING on the subject?

Serious question as nothing you are saying is backed up by fact.

You don't just make an agreement to merge in 4 or 5 years without an out.
The NFL did.

The "outs" you describe didn't even exist.
 

FirstTimer

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Exactly. I've read stories about the 2 and the stories always paint Peyton as being uptight about things and Eli as being laid back and unassuming.

So you mean you've watched The Book of Manning.

Got it.
 

FirstTimer

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About the other stuff, with the conditions of the merger. Talks of the merger went on for a long time and were mostly done in secret so there's a lot you can't just read about. Sometimes, you just need common sense. .

So you are making shit up.

Got it.
 

bearmick

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I have always considered Eli Manning a luckier Jay Cutller and a big reason I never gave up on Jay. Cutler could have easily been Eli with a little luck.

Cutler never had it in him to do what Eli did - shine on the biggest stage. Cutler always wilted when he needed to step up.
 

Warrior Spirit

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That doesn't mean the talent was inferior............You're not even supporting your own argument at this point.


I didn't avoid it. The Jets weren't great after SB III. Namath had very good 1972 and 1974's. I'm evaluating Namath. Not the Jets.



They absolutely did. If the AFL could get NFL players then the AFL could in fact pass the NFL.

You can't even form a cohesive argument.

"The NFL wasn't worried about getting passed up...it was just worried about losing all it's best players....."

:aj:



No, the NFL did not. Have you read ANYTHING on the subject?

Serious question as nothing you are saying is backed up by fact.


The NFL did.

The "outs" you describe didn't even exist.

Let me sum this up for you real quick, you're wrong about everything to do with this era. Not just a little wrong but very very wrong. As wrong as one can be.

Al Davis was a crisis actor.
That's not funny
 

The Hawk

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Huh? 35-101? 125 TDs and 173Ints? 67 QB rating? That Archie Manning? Really? Let's just put every player who ever played in the HOF.

It was kind of a joke. But I did think that Archie had a world of talent but was doomed by playing on terrible teams during his career. No. He didn't belong in the HOF by any means. As a general comment, though, I think that there have been many good quarterbacks with bad numbers mainly because their teams were shit. I just hope that Trubisky doesn't fall into that category because of the shitty support given him.

Football players are greatly dependent on the guys next to them playing well, especially offensive linemen and quarterbacks. In other sports like baseball and basketball, not so much because they are more an individual game.
 

The Hawk

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Well, to be fair, Archie got the short end of the stick. Saints werent just bad. They were beyond that. But, no, he is not a HOF. He is also the reason Peyton and him decided for Peyton to go one more year in college. He wanted no part of the Saints drafting him.

That is right in all counts. I remember Archie and how bad the Saints were. They may have been the first team I can recall that fans wore paper bags over their heads at their games. They even called them the "Aints" back then:)
 

Warrior Spirit

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It was kind of a joke. But I did think that Archie had a world of talent but was doomed by playing on terrible teams during his career. No. He didn't belong in the HOF by any means. As a general comment, though, I think that there have been many good quarterbacks with bad numbers mainly because their teams were shit. I just hope that Trubisky doesn't fall into that category because of the shitty support given him.

Football players are greatly dependent on the guys next to them playing well, especially offensive linemen and quarterbacks. In other sports like baseball and basketball, not so much because they are more an individual game.
He went to a bad team no doubt but so do most top QB prospects. There is no position that can have a more immediate impact on a team. There's always that possibility that Archie just wasn't as good as advertised and his numbers seem to support that notion.
 

FirstTimer

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Let me sum this up for you real quick, you're wrong about everything to do with this era.

So you're avoiding actual discussion now when I ask what you've read and researched about the era. Got it.
 

Warrior Spirit

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So you're avoiding actual discussion now when I ask what you've read and researched about the era. Got it.
I've already stated what I've read and researched and it was all done decades before the internet came along. But at no point in this thread did you or anyone else show me you know even a little bit about what went on back then so it's pretty fruitless to continue to argue the point with people who have adopted their own fictitious narratives about that era. I mean you couldn't possibly believe what you've been saying if you knew why Al Davis resigned as commissioner so quickly, why Bubba Smith said what he said (He is the one who told of the NFL out as well as other things), and why Joe Namath quit football in 1969.

I can tell you the AFL didn't want to surpass the NFL as much as they want to join the NFL so they were never really the threat you say they were. It was all about money as I said. The idea of a merger was planted in to the heads of AFL owners by some NFL owners a couple years before it happened. It was never about a concerted effort by the AFL to outdo the NFL. Al Davis wanted war and he told AFL owners what to do to win that war. Other AFL owners did not want war and made the agreement of a merger without Al's knowledge and that's why he got pissed and resigned as their commissioner only 2 or 3 months after taking the job.
 

FirstTimer

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I've already stated what I've read and researched and it was all done decades before the internet came along..

What are your sources?

Please direct me to them. Would love to read the books, accounts, etc.

Thanks!

You have yet to provide one iota of evidence for anything you've posted.
 

AustinIllini

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Will Eli be a hall of famer? Yes. Does he deserve to be? Maybe?
 

Warrior Spirit

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What are your sources?

Please direct me to them. Would love to read the books, accounts, etc.

Thanks!

You have yet to provide one iota of evidence for anything you've posted.
My main source is me and my vast knowledge of football past and present. I pointed you in the right direction for other sources that can still be found on the internet, for you simple people who still think it ain't true if it's not on the internet.

As is the case with everything, all is forgotten in time and you're left with nothing but slanted accounts of what happened by the very entities who profited most. You won't have the prevailing feelings and understanding, fans had back then, now.

Back then, the World Championship games (not yet referred to as Super Bowls) between the AFL and NFL lost their appeal real quick with the Packers' shellacking of AFL teams in the first 2 World Championship games. The talk and predominant feeling back then was this World Championship was lame and not needed. It's also the evidence that the unfounded bullshit, you've been spewing about the AFL being a threat to the NFL, was indeed just bullshit.

So the real talk was the NFL championship game should decide the real champ. That would leave the AFL out in the cold but it would also leave the NFL out in the cold because they'd be missing out on a great chance to expand quickly by taking on the 10 AFL teams. As far as the NFL was concerned, the AFL was not a threat to their established league but more an opportunity for a massive expansion which meant more massive money. So going into the 1969 World Championship it was in the NFL's best interest that the AFL won in order to get fans to accept AFL teams as legitimate and make the merger a complete success.

Bubba Smith was not the first to claim that game was fixed but obviously got the most attention being an active participant in that game. Speculation was fueled back then by a story that broke shortly after that game about Namath's ties to organized crime and illegal gambling through a nightclub he owned. NFL commissioner, Pete Rozelle, ran some damage control and told Namath to either sell the bar, proven to have been used in illegal NFL gambling by phone taps, or face suspension. Namath chose instead to retire and announced his decision during an interview with Howard Cosell. He and Rozelle would later have more talks and he agreed to sell.

After the merger was complete and the 2 conferences in place in the NFL and money from TV contracts came pouring in the Jets would never sniff the playoffs with Namath again. So you look at his shit numbers and horrible W/L record while you realize the only big game he ever won was likely fixed and you have to think he should be noted more for wearing pantyhose than ever being a great NFL football player.

[video=youtube;_BCWvH2ISyI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BCWvH2ISyI[/video]
 

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