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  1. #1
    Three if by air Crystallas's Avatar
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    Default Dev kits for Playstation 5 are slowly hitting studios

    Friend let it slip that his studio had new DKs. Look it up, and they aren't alone. Very cool.

    I can't believe "Next Gen" is already around the corner again. But possibly one of the smaller leaps in performance, gen to gen, we've ever seen in consoles.


    Oh well, same shit, different system. It wont be the specs that sell, but the quality of content. So here's hoping PS5 and NGXbox listen to the consumers more for once.


    How many people are still on a PS3 or 360 for their non-PC/mobile device gaming unit?

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  3. #2
    CCS Donator Ares's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystallas View Post
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    Friend let it slip that his studio had new DKs. Look it up, and they aren't alone. Very cool.

    I can't believe "Next Gen" is already around the corner again. But possibly one of the smaller leaps in performance, gen to gen, we've ever seen in consoles.


    Oh well, same shit, different system. It wont be the specs that sell, but the quality of content. So here's hoping PS5 and NGXbox listen to the consumers more for once.


    How many people are still on a PS3 or 360 for their non-PC/mobile device gaming unit?
    I mean... not alot, but I don't like this trend of increasing the frequency of console gen releases.

    Unless they do a way better job of allowing content to be backward/forward compatible with PS4/PS5 and XboxOne/XboxTwo for say 3-5 years at 100%.

    Then start making titles Next gen only until you phase out the previous gen from new games.... if they lengthen the runway for a person to use last gen, that would be fair.

    But if they are going to make it so you need to buy a new console every 4-6 years, that would get annoying very fast.

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  5. #3
    Three if by air Crystallas's Avatar
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    PS5 is rumored to be Zen + Navi. So backwards compatibility should be super easy.


    Maybe the goal is to simply build a platform and not just do wildly differing consoles every gen. Kind of like how Japan used to have family computers in the 80s and mid 90s. All the same architectures and OEMs, just new versions of all parts.

  6. #4
    CCS Donator Ares's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystallas View Post
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    PS5 is rumored to be Zen + Navi. So backwards compatibility should be super easy.


    Maybe the goal is to simply build a platform and not just do wildly differing consoles every gen. Kind of like how Japan used to have family computers in the 80s and mid 90s. All the same architectures and OEMs, just new versions of all parts.
    Well, perhaps I should elaborate a bit too.

    I don't find backwards compatibility from a software standpoint, to be difficult.

    There are many Xbox 360 games that were made compatible for Xbox One, but simply have not been released.... whether Microsoft is being lazy or the Devs who made the game don't want it released because then they would need to support it... but this part needs to be figured out and fixed.

    They need to figure out, from all standpoints, how to get everything to be backwards compatible and available on the marketplaces for the users.

    If this trend continues, there will continue to be large gaps between the new consoles and old titles.

  7. #5
    Three if by air Crystallas's Avatar
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    Still not 100% sure what you're trying to say. Unless it's just the fact all of this is a growing hot mess, then I agree. Kids will want the latest and greatest and not know any better, so it doesn't really change, regardless of what we think.


    Not even an opinion, because it has been solidly proven over and over again, libre code models fixes these messes. If everything at a certain point was simply FOSS/OH(free open source software/hardware), then the gaps would mean nothing and the developers would sell more software. Free as in freedom, not free as in free beer (creators would still have so many ways to make money, as that has been long proven and shown in business models galore).

    If PS4 games don't work on PS5, oh well, but in 25 years it should be penalty free to reverse engineer genuine hardware and software then share whatever you like. It helps for preservation, it helps for education, it helps for the entire eco footprint, because an interested party could play their games without any form of emulation or FPGA on devices that may consume considerable amount less power in the future. ie: If I made a DMG(original) Game Boy replacement of sort with 1:1 accuracy (which even the GBC doesn't do), then instead of drawing 5-6W, maybe build something that draws 450mW(0.45W). Or imagine recompiled code + improved hardware, we're talking even bigger improvements. Maybe focusing on an already low draw handheld is a bad example. What about consoles that use 200W from the past, that could in theory run better on sub-30W hardware today? This all adds up.

    No longer need to port code, not like people use that term correctly at all. Nor do people use the term emulation correctly, remaster, or even simple words like digital. But in this day and age... the people seem to think none of that language matters are going to be the very same group that complain the loudest when it's too late and everything is too confusing to grasp without giving the non-media side of things some serious commitment.

  8. #6
    CCS Donator Ares's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystallas View Post
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    Still not 100% sure what you're trying to say. Unless it's just the fact all of this is a growing hot mess, then I agree. Kids will want the latest and greatest and not know any better, so it doesn't really change, regardless of what we think.


    Not even an opinion, because it has been solidly proven over and over again, libre code models fixes these messes. If everything at a certain point was simply FOSS/OH(free open source software/hardware), then the gaps would mean nothing and the developers would sell more software. Free as in freedom, not free as in free beer (creators would still have so many ways to make money, as that has been long proven and shown in business models galore).

    If PS4 games don't work on PS5, oh well, but in 25 years it should be penalty free to reverse engineer genuine hardware and software then share whatever you like. It helps for preservation, it helps for education, it helps for the entire eco footprint, because an interested party could play their games without any form of emulation or FPGA on devices that may consume considerable amount less power in the future. ie: If I made a DMG(original) Game Boy replacement of sort with 1:1 accuracy (which even the GBC doesn't do), then instead of drawing 5-6W, maybe build something that draws 450mW(0.45W). Or imagine recompiled code + improved hardware, we're talking even bigger improvements. Maybe focusing on an already low draw handheld is a bad example. What about consoles that use 200W from the past, that could in theory run better on sub-30W hardware today? This all adds up.

    No longer need to port code, not like people use that term correctly at all. Nor do people use the term emulation correctly, remaster, or even simple words like digital. But in this day and age... the people seem to think none of that language matters are going to be the very same group that complain the loudest when it's too late and everything is too confusing to grasp without giving the non-media side of things some serious commitment.
    I am trying to say that compatibility between console games across generations is not really a technical problem.

    It seems to mostly be some form/combination of organization/politics/business.

    Perhaps my example will help.

    Dragon Age: Origins is available on Xbox One, it is backwards compatible and available on the marketplace.
    Dragon Age II is not available on Xbox One, it is backwards compatible, but some combo of Microsoft and/or Bioware won't allow it to be released.
    Dragon Age Inquisition is available on Xbox360 and Xbox One, it was released for both consoles.

    No one from Microsoft nor Bioware will explain why Dragon Age II is not allowed on Xbox One.

    From what I've gathered, Dragon Age II was made ready to release on Xbox One, but they chose to not release it.

    This isn't a technical problem that needs to be solved, it is a problem in another domain that you can't solve with technology.... unless you unleash Skynet on anyone who won't allow the release of backwards compatible games on next gen consoles.

    This problem could exist for any game in any series if someone decides, for whatever reason, that they don't want it to be playable on the next gen console.

    If this is going to be the case, then I see more frequent console releases as a bigger annoyance.

    Personally I could just spend the money to have every gen console and play on w/e gen I need to.

    However, I would prefer if I buy a new gen console that it can supersede my existing console and allow me to play anything I've purchased in the last 10 years.

    I doubt I will get my wish lol

  9. #7
    Retired Bandwagon Mod clonetrooper264's Avatar
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    Wasn't it the case the one of the Playstations (might've even been ps4, can't remember) came out initially as backwards compatible and then they pulled that model and started only producing/selling models that were not backwards compatible?
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  10. #8
    Three if by air Crystallas's Avatar
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    Phat PS3 had the emotion engine. It wasn't perfect, but still accurate as far as 98+ compatibility rating.

    When I see phat PS3s for sale, I buy them up, because they essentially play PS1/2/3 and can be ATX'ed with a few drill holes.

  11. #9
    Three if by air Crystallas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
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    I am trying to say that compatibility between console games across generations is not really a technical problem.

    It seems to mostly be some form/combination of organization/politics/business.

    Perhaps my example will help.

    Dragon Age: Origins is available on Xbox One, it is backwards compatible and available on the marketplace.
    Dragon Age II is not available on Xbox One, it is backwards compatible, but some combo of Microsoft and/or Bioware won't allow it to be released.
    Dragon Age Inquisition is available on Xbox360 and Xbox One, it was released for both consoles.

    No one from Microsoft nor Bioware will explain why Dragon Age II is not allowed on Xbox One.

    From what I've gathered, Dragon Age II was made ready to release on Xbox One, but they chose to not release it.

    This isn't a technical problem that needs to be solved, it is a problem in another domain that you can't solve with technology.... unless you unleash Skynet on anyone who won't allow the release of backwards compatible games on next gen consoles.

    This problem could exist for any game in any series if someone decides, for whatever reason, that they don't want it to be playable on the next gen console.

    If this is going to be the case, then I see more frequent console releases as a bigger annoyance.

    Personally I could just spend the money to have every gen console and play on w/e gen I need to.

    However, I would prefer if I buy a new gen console that it can supersede my existing console and allow me to play anything I've purchased in the last 10 years.

    I doubt I will get my wish lol

    I agree with this too. Still think it comes down to IP laws and duration held on programming.

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  13. #10
    Senior Member Monsieur Tirets's Avatar
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    with the ps4 and 1x having just come out I can't see sony/microsoft asking consumers to shell out another $300+ already. I think the next gen systems will be released in 2020. considering that would still be a shorter life cycle than the 360/ps3 had, without a mid cycle refresh.

    i would think sony especially is making far to much money off the ps4 to release another console now and wont do so until they have to.


    maybe the end of 2019(devs get at least a couple years with dev kits before launch dont they?). but if thats the case theyll be minor upgrades over the pro/x1 and might not even be "next gen" systems but rather another refresh. whicc makes sense since theres talk that navi/volta will be refreshes. and that makes sense since the standard recently in GPUs has been, big leap, followed by a refresh, before the next leap.

    this is just layman speculation on my part.

    anyway, the only consoles i currently have are my old broken 360 and a ps3 my brother in law gave me. Im strictly pc now, feeling very little need to own a console. the 1 sony exclusive release a year that might interest me slightly isnt worth it.

  14. #11
    False Prophet AussieBear's Avatar
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    still on x360, wii and broken ps3 when not on duh pc. will eventually reinvest into another ps3 for the games i already have. rarely play any of them. i usually only play the 360 with the kid because i got some lego and pixar cars games for him.

    never planned an upgrade on the consoles. but been interested in a switch. doubt id jump on the ps5 wagon, but it would raise stock levels for used ps4s n some deals i couldnt pass up on.

  15. #12
    Senior Member Monsieur Tirets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AussieBear View Post
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    still on x360, wii and broken ps3 when not on duh pc. will eventually reinvest into another ps3 for the games i already have. rarely play any of them. i usually only play the 360 with the kid because i got some lego and pixar cars games for him.

    never planned an upgrade on the consoles. but been interested in a switch. doubt id jump on the ps5 wagon, but it would raise stock levels for used ps4s n some deals i couldnt pass up on.
    ps3 emulation has come a long way. hell, its how i played persona 5. but you already have ps3 games, so...

  16. #13
    what the whaaaaat? xer0h0ur's Avatar
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    Blame the gaming industry and TV industry for pushing 4K. The simple fact is that 4K gaming at anything resembling decent framerate requires a bump in power. PS5 and the next Xbox might be the first consoles that actually can handle 4K gaming at 30 FPS without needing to do that dynamic resolution bullshit to keep up with the target framerate.

    AMD has been slow to really make strides in raw GPU power. Vega wasn't exactly much of a leap from the previous generation (unless you're trying to compare it to the mid-range Polaris architecture) and people are expecting Navi to provide that leap which Vega didn't deliver. In fact the biggest leap in power from PS4 to PS5 would be its CPU side getting the Zen upgrade and more specifically at the very least the Zen+ treatment.

    AMD for better or worse is the only real player in the console SoC game unless Intel suddenly decided to enter the ring although I presume the cross-licensing and SoC deals AMD/Intel have together probably has language in it making sure Intel can't do so.

  17. #14
    Three if by air Crystallas's Avatar
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    I understand this model. Not to say I love it, but I get why Sony is doing it, and why Microsoft will do it too.

    #1, Makes no sense to fab chips that are discontinued otherwise in the industry.
    #2, One-ups-manship. They want to trade year after year of who has the most powerful console.
    #3, Consoles are competing with PC Master Race. So the old model of 7 year generations is completely gone. Mid-gen releases are here to stay.
    #4, Sony and Microsoft are slowly becoming less relevant in many ways. Therefore they need to keep this machine going.
    #5, Graphics sell games. While a lot of people are still holding off on replacing their home TVs and monitors for UHD still, you need the content to sell the devices. Sony and Microsoft have varying interests in those markets. Obviously Sony still makes some of the best displays as well.


    IMO, a 10 year release cycle is too much, and a 5 year is too soon. The beauty of an architecture like AMD64x86 is that they could update the hardware and retail full compatibility with the least amount of effort. So for all intents and purposes, people who can set aside requiring bragging rights about owning the latest and greatest, more people will be able to play the latest games still, just at varying levels of image quality.

    All in all, it's a net benefit to everyone. From the developers to the consumers.

  18. #15
    CCS Donator Ares's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystallas View Post
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    I understand this model. Not to say I love it, but I get why Sony is doing it, and why Microsoft will do it too.

    #1, Makes no sense to fab chips that are discontinued otherwise in the industry.
    #2, One-ups-manship. They want to trade year after year of who has the most powerful console.
    #3, Consoles are competing with PC Master Race. So the old model of 7 year generations is completely gone. Mid-gen releases are here to stay.
    #4, Sony and Microsoft are slowly becoming less relevant in many ways. Therefore they need to keep this machine going.
    #5, Graphics sell games. While a lot of people are still holding off on replacing their home TVs and monitors for UHD still, you need the content to sell the devices. Sony and Microsoft have varying interests in those markets. Obviously Sony still makes some of the best displays as well.


    IMO, a 10 year release cycle is too much, and a 5 year is too soon. The beauty of an architecture like AMD64x86 is that they could update the hardware and retail full compatibility with the least amount of effort. So for all intents and purposes, people who can set aside requiring bragging rights about owning the latest and greatest, more people will be able to play the latest games still, just at varying levels of image quality.

    All in all, it's a net benefit to everyone. From the developers to the consumers.
    All I really care about is, if they go to a 5 year release cycle.... keep compatibility and migrations easy, so the consumers don't need to keep starting from scratch and/or have to run 2-3 consoles in order to play any of their games from the last 8-10 years.

    I don't think that approach is unreasonable.

    I get that compatibility is a bit messy from the Xbox360/PS3 gen to now, but going forward I feel they have the platforms to make migrating to a new console and backwards compatibility things they can do fairly easily if they put the pressure on studios to make sure it happens.

  19. #16
    Senior Member Monsieur Tirets's Avatar
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    i dig the long life cycles. for one games seem to have hit something of a plateau in terms of graphics. games from 2013 look just as good as the newest releases for the most part, and most of the improvement comes from art direction and attention to detail rather than pure graphical prowess. so the longer life cycle forces devs to focus more on gameplay and design(art direction, attention to detail, etc) rather than just wowing with graphics. and it also means a reasonably powerful PC will be able to keep up with the newest releases for some time.

    i dont see myself needing to upgrade my pc for at least 3 years. itll probably still be able to play the early next gen titles of the ps5/next box era with little trouble. especially since i rather play at 1080p maxed out than 4k with setting turned down and still only hitting 30fps. when 4k is the norm and $300-400 gpus can max out new titles at 4k 60 fps, thats probably when ill worry about upgrading.

  20. #17
    Senior Member botfly10's Avatar
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    Seems weird for Sony to initiate the next gen when they have such a big market share on current gen. I suspect ps5 isn't scheduled for release for another couple 3 years or so.

    Maybe sony is feeling pressure from Nintendo what with every game getting ported and wanna push the tech so far forwards that devs can't just do a simple port of console games to the switch.

  21. #18
    Senior Member Monsieur Tirets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by botfly10 View Post
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    Seems weird for Sony to initiate the next gen when they have such a big market share on current gen. I suspect ps5 isn't scheduled for release for another couple 3 years or so.

    Maybe sony is feeling pressure from Nintendo what with every game getting ported and wanna push the tech so far forwards that devs can't just do a simple port of console games to the switch.
    yeah, i dont think sony is feeling pressure. they have so much market share and sell games simply on the PS name. so the longer they can milk the current gen, the more profit for them. especially with the pro only being 2 years old. xbox 1x only being 1 year old or so. theyll feel no pressure imo until MS and nintendo start talking new systems. the switch is still way under powered.

    and it can take years to develop a game so it makes sense dev kits would be sent out now with a 2020 or so release planned. dev kits being out now also means the hardware likely isnt far removed from whats currently available. all of which leans towards the upgrade route rather than full blown next gen system. people who just bought a pro will still be able to play the latest games while those wanting more bells and whistles can get the ps4 pro+ (aka ps5). thats my guess.

  22. #19
    Senior Member botfly10's Avatar
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    I think its funny that xbox has such a small market share that they can't get exclusives any more, so they are paying for exclusive marketing now.

    Have you heard about this shit? A bunch of games coming out this year, xbox PAID for exclusive marking rights so they can make it seem like the titles are on xbox only.

  23. #20
    Senior Member botfly10's Avatar
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    Oldest and truest rule in the book. Games sell consoles. Not hardware specs or anything else. You want people to buy your shit, you better have the exclusives.

  24. #21
    Senior Member Monsieur Tirets's Avatar
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    yeah, people sure love their sony exclusives.

    but for me thats one of the great thing about pc gaming. the vast majority of games are available on the platform, and 1 or 2 sony exclusives released a year that might interest me simply are not worth it.

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