Move on from Yu!!!!!!!

anotheridiot

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Every player you mention, I went Hmm in agreement with you. Dang that's a lot of bad deals out there.

I think this is why this discussion came from the YU thread. Everyone including agents thought the dam broke with kershaw and grienke and the teams clearly said no.

still does not mean the stupid money will stop next off season though
 

beckdawg

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Every player you mention, I went Hmm in agreement with you. Dang that's a lot of bad deals out there.

Thing to keep in mind is expectations. Most of those deals are more than 3 years old at this point. So when teams made those deals they were using data from likely 3+ years even prior to that to adjust their thinking. A lot of the reason deals become bad is players just finally get old. And in the case of the time frame from those deals you had a lot of players who likely were over performing their age projection because of hgh/steroids. That in turn is a vicious cycle itself because once you have a guy like that you're a bit pot committed already. So, you are more likely to press in FA for more because rebuilding with a $100+ mil contract on the books isn't fun. That in essence is the tigers right now and to some extent was the Angels with Hamilton/Pujols.

As all this pertains to Heyward, I've said it before and I'll say it again. The 5/$106 he has left after this year really isn't that big of a deal. Cain literally just got 5/$80 and he's 4 years older than Heyward is. Cain's best seasons were age 29(6.5 fWAR), age 28(4.8 fWAR), age 31(4.1 fWAR), age 27(2.7 fWAR) and age 30(2.5 fWAR). Heyward will be 28 this year. So in a typical age curve you'd expect the next 4 or so years to be his most productive. Maybe he's Andruw Jones who just fell off a cliff after age 29. But Jones is literally the only guy I can think of in the past 25 years who was healthy and was on a potential HoF type career to just utterly lose it before they turn 30.

Regardless, I'll take the over on Heyward having the 11-14 fWAR his remaining 5 years after the opt out expect. Frankly if he has 1 or 2 years at 4-5 fWAR which isn't entirely implausible given he's already done it in the past, he would totally right the way the contract looks. An 8/$186 mil contract is an expectation of roughly 20-23 wins of which he's got 2.4 in the first 2 years. Him getting to 3 wins a year for the remainder of the deal isn't that difficult especially if he has a couple 4-5 win seasons. Fangraphs was down on his defense last year for some reason. I'm not entirely sure why given he looked as good as ever there and won a gold glove. But for the sake of argument if you took his 2016 defense and pair it with his 2017 offense he would have been worth 2.3 fWAR. Another way to look at that 3 win mark is 2013 where he hit .254/.349/.427 with his typically great defense and was worth 3.4 fWAR. Only difference between that and the .259/.326/.389 he hit last year is a 1.5% walk rate decline and a marginal increase in his slugging. You're talking about a 3% shift in his soft/hard hit rates to get that slugging. He was basically at a 2% change from 2016 to 2017.

So, it's not like it's impossible for Heyward to live up to his deal. If you want to bet against him go for it. But he strikes me as a case of coaching just messing him up by making him change in a similar way to how the O's screwed up Arrieta. Obviously Heyward's swing had issues in Atlanta and St. Louis/Cubs thought they could get more out of him by "fixing" things. Sometimes guys just gotta be what they are.
 

brett05

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Im not saying its impossible, but I think it's been shown to be unlikely.
 

fatbeard

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I think that if he's going to have a strong bounce back, it'll likely be this year. In 2016 he had the pressure of living up to the contract while playing on a team with massive expectations. In 2017, the offseason was all about "fixing Jason Heyward's swing." "Ooh, look! Another video of him in the cage. Dunno, looks a little awkward." This year, no one's talking about him; the offseason narratives were all about Schwarber and the starting rotation. Everyone's just priced in to the collective expectation that Heyward will have another 1-2 fWAR year. He really is out of the limelight and should have very little pressure on him. Just go play.
 

anotheridiot

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Thing to keep in mind is expectations. Most of those deals are more than 3 years old at this point. So when teams made those deals they were using data from likely 3+ years even prior to that to adjust their thinking. A lot of the reason deals become bad is players just finally get old. And in the case of the time frame from those deals you had a lot of players who likely were over performing their age projection because of hgh/steroids. That in turn is a vicious cycle itself because once you have a guy like that you're a bit pot committed already. So, you are more likely to press in FA for more because rebuilding with a $100+ mil contract on the books isn't fun. That in essence is the tigers right now and to some extent was the Angels with Hamilton/Pujols.

As all this pertains to Heyward, I've said it before and I'll say it again. The 5/$106 he has left after this year really isn't that big of a deal. Cain literally just got 5/$80 and he's 4 years older than Heyward is. Cain's best seasons were age 29(6.5 fWAR), age 28(4.8 fWAR), age 31(4.1 fWAR), age 27(2.7 fWAR) and age 30(2.5 fWAR). Heyward will be 28 this year. So in a typical age curve you'd expect the next 4 or so years to be his most productive. Maybe he's Andruw Jones who just fell off a cliff after age 29. But Jones is literally the only guy I can think of in the past 25 years who was healthy and was on a potential HoF type career to just utterly lose it before they turn 30.

Regardless, I'll take the over on Heyward having the 11-14 fWAR his remaining 5 years after the opt out expect. Frankly if he has 1 or 2 years at 4-5 fWAR which isn't entirely implausible given he's already done it in the past, he would totally right the way the contract looks. An 8/$186 mil contract is an expectation of roughly 20-23 wins of which he's got 2.4 in the first 2 years. Him getting to 3 wins a year for the remainder of the deal isn't that difficult especially if he has a couple 4-5 win seasons. Fangraphs was down on his defense last year for some reason. I'm not entirely sure why given he looked as good as ever there and won a gold glove. But for the sake of argument if you took his 2016 defense and pair it with his 2017 offense he would have been worth 2.3 fWAR. Another way to look at that 3 win mark is 2013 where he hit .254/.349/.427 with his typically great defense and was worth 3.4 fWAR. Only difference between that and the .259/.326/.389 he hit last year is a 1.5% walk rate decline and a marginal increase in his slugging. You're talking about a 3% shift in his soft/hard hit rates to get that slugging. He was basically at a 2% change from 2016 to 2017.

So, it's not like it's impossible for Heyward to live up to his deal. If you want to bet against him go for it. But he strikes me as a case of coaching just messing him up by making him change in a similar way to how the O's screwed up Arrieta. Obviously Heyward's swing had issues in Atlanta and St. Louis/Cubs thought they could get more out of him by "fixing" things. Sometimes guys just gotta be what they are.

I thought he would have a real reason to have a good year and opt out to get a 30 million dollar deal somewhere. But the past two season almost show how lost he was. He does not seem to be the guy that got complacent because he had the money, he seemed like he was upset he could not live up to the deal. They will constantly show he has gold glove defense to defend the money, but it really does not earn that whole contract until he hits. I am more worried about the cubs keeping him in a low pressure spot in the order, it shows they dont see alot of intestinal fortitude. Otherwise, leading off and stealing bases would be in the cards.
 

chibears55

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Thing to keep in mind is expectations. Most of those deals are more than 3 years old at this point. So when teams made those deals they were using data from likely 3+ years even prior to that to adjust their thinking. A lot of the reason deals become bad is players just finally get old. And in the case of the time frame from those deals you had a lot of players who likely were over performing their age projection because of hgh/steroids. That in turn is a vicious cycle itself because once you have a guy like that you're a bit pot committed already. So, you are more likely to press in FA for more because rebuilding with a $100+ mil contract on the books isn't fun. That in essence is the tigers right now and to some extent was the Angels with Hamilton/Pujols.

As all this pertains to Heyward, I've said it before and I'll say it again. The 5/$106 he has left after this year really isn't that big of a deal. Cain literally just got 5/$80 and he's 4 years older than Heyward is. Cain's best seasons were age 29(6.5 fWAR), age 28(4.8 fWAR), age 31(4.1 fWAR), age 27(2.7 fWAR) and age 30(2.5 fWAR). Heyward will be 28 this year. So in a typical age curve you'd expect the next 4 or so years to be his most productive. Maybe he's Andruw Jones who just fell off a cliff after age 29. But Jones is literally the only guy I can think of in the past 25 years who was healthy and was on a potential HoF type career to just utterly lose it before they turn 30.

Regardless, I'll take the over on Heyward having the 11-14 fWAR his remaining 5 years after the opt out expect. Frankly if he has 1 or 2 years at 4-5 fWAR which isn't entirely implausible given he's already done it in the past, he would totally right the way the contract looks. An 8/$186 mil contract is an expectation of roughly 20-23 wins of which he's got 2.4 in the first 2 years. Him getting to 3 wins a year for the remainder of the deal isn't that difficult especially if he has a couple 4-5 win seasons. Fangraphs was down on his defense last year for some reason. I'm not entirely sure why given he looked as good as ever there and won a gold glove. But for the sake of argument if you took his 2016 defense and pair it with his 2017 offense he would have been worth 2.3 fWAR. Another way to look at that 3 win mark is 2013 where he hit .254/.349/.427 with his typically great defense and was worth 3.4 fWAR. Only difference between that and the .259/.326/.389 he hit last year is a 1.5% walk rate decline and a marginal increase in his slugging. You're talking about a 3% shift in his soft/hard hit rates to get that slugging. He was basically at a 2% change from 2016 to 2017.

So, it's not like it's impossible for Heyward to live up to his deal. If you want to bet against him go for it. But he strikes me as a case of coaching just messing him up by making him change in a similar way to how the O's screwed up Arrieta. Obviously Heyward's swing had issues in Atlanta and St. Louis/Cubs thought they could get more out of him by "fixing" things. Sometimes guys just gotta be what they are.
So even if he just has another 250 to 260 year and continues to play GG outfield. He wouldn't be difficult to trade, especially if the cubs took 5+ mil per of the remaining contract...

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beckdawg

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So even if he just has another 250 to 260 year and continues to play GG outfield. He wouldn't be difficult to trade, especially if the cubs took 5+ mil per of the remaining contract...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

Well the main reason I think he's untradable is because I don't think he'll waive his NTC. He seems to really like the environment in chicago. Plus as good as they are going to be why would someone who wants to win allow themselves to be traded?
 

chibears55

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Well the main reason I think he's untradable is because I don't think he'll waive his NTC. He seems to really like the environment in chicago. Plus as good as they are going to be why would someone who wants to win allow themselves to be traded?
It will be a partial no trade trade clause after this season where he can block deals to 12 teams..

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SilenceS

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I think that if he's going to have a strong bounce back, it'll likely be this year. In 2016 he had the pressure of living up to the contract while playing on a team with massive expectations. In 2017, the offseason was all about "fixing Jason Heyward's swing." "Ooh, look! Another video of him in the cage. Dunno, looks a little awkward." This year, no one's talking about him; the offseason narratives were all about Schwarber and the starting rotation. Everyone's just priced in to the collective expectation that Heyward will have another 1-2 fWAR year. He really is out of the limelight and should have very little pressure on him. Just go play.

I agree. I did not like heyward signing. I backed it in some aspects because Im a fanboy of the Cubs. Heyward was legit better last year, but still. I believe there is no pressure this year cause everyone wrote him off. That is good motivation for a very competitive guy. I will give him that.
 

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