In unsurprising news cubs release grimm

chibears55

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Strop looks like a DL case to start. There will be 2 openings.
Just read where he said he will be pitching next week and should be ready to start season but that would be up to management

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anotheridiot

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It's genuinely impressive how many times he's been corrected on this point without it sinking in.

no, I just dont get the point. There will be the calls to upgrade at the deadline and at that point, who is going to care about staying under the luxury tax that this is even such a huge sabermetric concern for the forum gm's. Ask why they did not non tender Grimm and save those half million, it does not matter. I guess its only important for whoevers idea it is or who is interested in kissing ass.
 

fatbeard

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no, I just dont get the point. There will be the calls to upgrade at the deadline and at that point, who is going to care about staying under the luxury tax that this is even such a huge sabermetric concern for the forum gm's. Ask why they did not non tender Grimm and save those half million, it does not matter. I guess its only important for whoevers idea it is or who is interested in kissing ass.

Who do you think better understands the intricacies and ramifications of the Cubs payroll situation vs. the luxury tax: You, or Theo Epstein?
 

TC in Mississippi

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no, I just dont get the point. There will be the calls to upgrade at the deadline and at that point, who is going to care about staying under the luxury tax that this is even such a huge sabermetric concern for the forum gm's. Ask why they did not non tender Grimm and save those half million, it does not matter. I guess its only important for whoevers idea it is or who is interested in kissing ass.

It's fairly simple to understand. There is a huge FA period coming up next year and the teams that are close to it now and that plan on spending big in it are, barring emergency, are going to stay under the luxury tax this year so they can go over it for a 2-3 years after that before the penalties affect their draft picks, compensatory picks, international signing money and of course the draconian penalties that go up as high as 80% at a certain point. That said it's not a cap so if a contending team lost a star but could replace them in trade they may need to make a decision. The bottom line is these guys in MLB front offices understand every single ramification, how to avoid them and when that may not be possible. You just seem to talk about the tax as if it doesn't matter. Sorry, it does.
 

beckdawg

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It's fairly simple to understand. There is a huge FA period coming up next year and the teams that are close to it now and that plan on spending big in it are, barring emergency, are going to stay under the luxury tax this year so they can go over it for a 2-3 years after that before the penalties affect their draft picks, compensatory picks, international signing money and of course the draconian penalties that go up as high as 80% at a certain point. That said it's not a cap so if a contending team lost a star but could replace them in trade they may need to make a decision. The bottom line is these guys in MLB front offices understand every single ramification, how to avoid them and when that may not be possible. You just seem to talk about the tax as if it doesn't matter. Sorry, it does.

It's not just that though. I mean I think the first year over is a 10% tax on any player over the luxury tax. If they are over this year and you give Harper or whomever $30 mil then that's an extra $3 mil on top and that continues to compound year after year. But the thing is it ultimately is unnecessary for the cubs to go over. They are projected by fangraphs to be +9 on the cards for the central and +1 on the Dodgers for the NL as a whole. If we're talking about Holland here he maybe adds 1 win over what the alternative would be. That shouldn't matter until the playoffs.

On the other hand, it's entirely plausible that the cubs bullpen as it sits today is fine. And it's also entirely plausible that someone gets hurt during the year that you're not expecting. For example, I'm sure most of us weren't expecting the cubs would need to deal for Avila at the deadline. If you spend up to the cap or even over now you leave yourself no contingency. And while I'd agree if something were to go wrong the bullpen is most likely the biggest worry, even if it does you can easily deal for someone at the deadline. I don't typically like trading for relievers but to be frank if they are depth relievers and not impact Chapman/Miller types they usually go for peanuts. Wilson was pricery than I like to go but I'd argue people thought he'd be an impact guy. But if you're talking about someone like Rodney was 3 years ago or Monty was 2 years ago they came for relatively painless costs.

So, as long as the front office is confident in Wilson, Edwards and Morrow being able to fill the closer role they should largely be fine. And honestly, don't be surprised if they call up Alzolay or De La Cruz in July and let them pitch out of the pen. Both have some work to do in order to be rotation pieces but both have 2 plus pitches and that's all you need out of the pen. Plus I know De La Cruz is on the 40 man and I believe Alzolay also is. Alzolay is 92-96 as a starter. You put him in the pen you're probably talking 94-98. Like wise you'd see De La Cruz with high 90's stuff.
 

chibears55

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Bottom line is we fans and cubs have to hope for no serious injuries and Morrow can do the job as Closer..

Otherwise their spending both prospects and money in July that they dont have a whole lot of available...

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beckdawg

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Bottom line is we fans and cubs have to hope for no serious injuries and Morrow can do the job as Closer..

Otherwise their spending both prospects and money in July that they dont have a whole lot of available...

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Not sure they will have to regardless. Wilson has looked more like the guy they thought they were trading for. And i've someone think it was brett from BN mention rival scouts had told him or sharma that they were just as confused as fans/cubs front office as to what happened because they liked wilson pre-trade.
 

chibears55

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Not sure they will have to regardless. Wilson has looked more like the guy they thought they were trading for. And i've someone think it was brett from BN mention rival scouts had told him or sharma that they were just as confused as fans/cubs front office as to what happened because they liked wilson pre-trade.
I just hope they all play the way their capable of with minimal normal struggles during the season..

I really like the way the SP looks going in and it would be a shame if the bullpen spoils a bunch of good starts..

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beckdawg

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I just hope they all play the way their capable of with minimal normal struggles during the season..

I really like the way the SP looks going in and it would be a shame if the bullpen spoils a bunch of good starts..

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Some where I read(think BN) that part of the issue may have been they burned the bullpen too much early last year by being careful with their starters in order to save them for the playoffs. The gist of the argument was because they were more heavily using the bullpen early on that by the time they got the the playoffs guys like Edwards were sorta gassed. I'm not sure how I feel about that idea but it's not totally implausible.

Reason that is sort of interesting is the smart money seems to be on Butler being the last guy in the pen. He's out of options so it would make sense. But if the first paragraph is right it might also be a way of saving the bullpen some. Monty has talked about how hard it was on him being the 6th starter and also being an impact reliever type. If they have Butler to eat a lot of innings/be the 6th starter, that can ease some of the pressure on Monty which in turn helps the rest of the pen as well. And with them also having Smyly possibly around for midseason, burning out Butler in the first 3-4 months of the season isn't as big of a deal. Like if he gives you 60-80 innings from April-Aug and then is useless the rest of the season that's no big deal because he wasn't going to be an impact guy for the playoffs and you theoretically have Smyly/De La Cruz/Alzolay/Tseng for September onwards.
 

chibears55

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Some where I read(think BN) that part of the issue may have been they burned the bullpen too much early last year by being careful with their starters in order to save them for the playoffs. The gist of the argument was because they were more heavily using the bullpen early on that by the time they got the the playoffs guys like Edwards were sorta gassed. I'm not sure how I feel about that idea but it's not totally implausible.

Reason that is sort of interesting is the smart money seems to be on Butler being the last guy in the pen. He's out of options so it would make sense. But if the first paragraph is right it might also be a way of saving the bullpen some. Monty has talked about how hard it was on him being the 6th starter and also being an impact reliever type. If they have Butler to eat a lot of innings/be the 6th starter, that can ease some of the pressure on Monty which in turn helps the rest of the pen as well. And with them also having Smyly possibly around for midseason, burning out Butler in the first 3-4 months of the season isn't as big of a deal. Like if he gives you 60-80 innings from April-Aug and then is useless the rest of the season that's no big deal because he wasn't going to be an impact guy for the playoffs and you theoretically have Smyly/De La Cruz/Alzolay/Tseng for September onwards.
Guys were definately burnt by playoffs..

Guys like Grimm Rondon Pena Wilson and somewhat Uehara basically sucked for the most part all year..lol

Which was another reason why guys like Edwards Monty Strop and Davis were burnt out by Playoffs , cause they had to be used in alot of games that should of been mopped up by guys above and werent...

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beckdawg

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Guys like Grimm Rondon Pena Wilson and somewhat Uehara basically sucked for the most part all year..lol

Eh.... I mean I'm not sure I entirely agree here. Pena and Grimm sucked but they weren't really supposed to be good. You look at any guys 8th reliever and most of them are in AAA because a lot of teams only carry 7 guys. And Pena was only up because of injury/the fact that others were over used already. Koji really wasn't that bad. In terms of value he was basically similar to Duensing. ERA was certainly higher but he was used in higher leverage situations. Duensing barely saw any high leverage situation until the end of the year. Wilson I'd agree was pretty bad with the cubs but he was acquired after most of the guys had been so heavily used so I wouldn't say he was the cause so much. And Rondon was... IDK not great but as relievers go he wasn't *that* bad.

IMO, the rest of the pen being gassed had more to do with Maddon pulling starters earlier last year. I'm not really in favor of the way he did that. I get the concept of limiting innings and I think it was a smart goal but I think we see the obvious down side. Wherever I was reading about this to start with mentioned the idea of letting the starters go an extra inning but mixing in Butler/Monty getting spot starts here and there to give guys an extra rest day from time to time. I think I like that approach better. It effectively creates similar end goals but you're sort of taking all that extra work load off the majority of the bullpen and dumping it on a guy like Butler. If Butler is wrecked by midseason you're likely fine because you've got other starters who can eat those innings.
 

CSF77

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Eh.... I mean I'm not sure I entirely agree here. Pena and Grimm sucked but they weren't really supposed to be good. You look at any guys 8th reliever and most of them are in AAA because a lot of teams only carry 7 guys. And Pena was only up because of injury/the fact that others were over used already. Koji really wasn't that bad. In terms of value he was basically similar to Duensing. ERA was certainly higher but he was used in higher leverage situations. Duensing barely saw any high leverage situation until the end of the year. Wilson I'd agree was pretty bad with the cubs but he was acquired after most of the guys had been so heavily used so I wouldn't say he was the cause so much. And Rondon was... IDK not great but as relievers go he wasn't *that* bad.

IMO, the rest of the pen being gassed had more to do with Maddon pulling starters earlier last year. I'm not really in favor of the way he did that. I get the concept of limiting innings and I think it was a smart goal but I think we see the obvious down side. Wherever I was reading about this to start with mentioned the idea of letting the starters go an extra inning but mixing in Butler/Monty getting spot starts here and there to give guys an extra rest day from time to time. I think I like that approach better. It effectively creates similar end goals but you're sort of taking all that extra work load off the majority of the bullpen and dumping it on a guy like Butler. If Butler is wrecked by midseason you're likely fine because you've got other starters who can eat those innings.

I’m pretty sure that they would promote Maples if he is dominating Iowa. Add to it Tseng is another 2 inning candidate if Butler continues with his B.B.:SO
 

CubsFaninMN

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Eh.... I mean I'm not sure I entirely agree here. Pena and Grimm sucked but they weren't really supposed to be good. You look at any guys 8th reliever and most of them are in AAA because a lot of teams only carry 7 guys. And Pena was only up because of injury/the fact that others were over used already. Koji really wasn't that bad. In terms of value he was basically similar to Duensing. ERA was certainly higher but he was used in higher leverage situations. Duensing barely saw any high leverage situation until the end of the year. Wilson I'd agree was pretty bad with the cubs but he was acquired after most of the guys had been so heavily used so I wouldn't say he was the cause so much. And Rondon was... IDK not great but as relievers go he wasn't *that* bad.

IMO, the rest of the pen being gassed had more to do with Maddon pulling starters earlier last year. I'm not really in favor of the way he did that. I get the concept of limiting innings and I think it was a smart goal but I think we see the obvious down side. Wherever I was reading about this to start with mentioned the idea of letting the starters go an extra inning but mixing in Butler/Monty getting spot starts here and there to give guys an extra rest day from time to time. I think I like that approach better. It effectively creates similar end goals but you're sort of taking all that extra work load off the majority of the bullpen and dumping it on a guy like Butler. If Butler is wrecked by midseason you're likely fine because you've got other starters who can eat those innings.

I dunno if you can state that Joe was pulling his starters a *lot* earlier last year, overall, than in '16. First, whether he's following the trend, or leading it, *all* managers are pulling their starters earlier and using their pens more. It's part of the direction the whole industry is taking, and I imagine it has a lot to do with metrics that state how a given pitcher fares the first, second and third times through the rotation.

Second, the starters themselves were putting themselves in positions to come out of games earlier last year, what with their noticeable lack of control. Especially when it came to guys like Arrieta and Lackey, whose walk rates were up, and who were having a far harder time the *first* time through the opposing lineup than the second. I can truly believe that a manager would look at that and decide that the third time through was *not* gonna be a charm.

Hopefully, we have reduced the total number of walks our starters will issue by replacing the two guys whose walk rates were going more strongly in the wrong direction than the other guys. I will also point out that the Cubs seemed, last year, to "enjoy" some of the worst ball-and-strike calling I have witnessed in 60+ years on the planet. I sometimes wonder if that's not on purpose? The umpires might be thinking "Yeah, these guys think their shit don't stink. Well, *I'll* bring 'em down to Earth fast! See how cocky they are when their starters can't get a pitch called a strike unless it's grooved right down the middle."

But, again, these games are taking three and a half hours because of five pitching changes per team. Not because of the time it takes a pitcher to throw the ball. If we're getting to the point where we have to keep two or three relievers available in AAA just so we can send hard-used guys down to R&R, effectively using 10- to 12-man pens, maybe it's time to just give up and expand the 25-man to a 30-man, and accept the fact that starters will go -- at most -- twice through the opposing lineup, no matter how many innings that is, and then get pulled for the first in the parade of relievers who will work every... single... game.

That's the future of the game, guys. Complete games are, except for oddities and the occasional no-hitter bid (and not even all of those), as extinct as the dodo. Might as well start accepting it now.
 

beckdawg

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I dunno if you can state that Joe was pulling his starters a *lot* earlier last year, overall, than in '16. First, whether he's following the trend, or leading it, *all* managers are pulling their starters earlier and using their pens more. It's part of the direction the whole industry is taking, and I imagine it has a lot to do with metrics that state how a given pitcher fares the first, second and third times through the rotation.

I mean Lester as an example, in 2015 he started 31 games and threw 205.0 innings. In 2016 he threw 202.2 in 32 games. In 2017 he made 33 starts with 180.2 IP. Arrieta made 33 starts in 2015 and threw 229.0 IP. In 2016 he started 31 games and threw 197.1 IP. Last year he threw 168.1 IP in 30 starts. Lackey in 29 starts in 2016 threw 188.1 IP. In 31 last year he threw 170.2 IP.

These are your work horse type starters and all threw substantially fewer innings.
 

CSF77

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I mean Lester as an example, in 2015 he started 31 games and threw 205.0 innings. In 2016 he threw 202.2 in 32 games. In 2017 he made 33 starts with 180.2 IP. Arrieta made 33 starts in 2015 and threw 229.0 IP. In 2016 he started 31 games and threw 197.1 IP. Last year he threw 168.1 IP in 30 starts. Lackey in 29 starts in 2016 threw 188.1 IP. In 31 last year he threw 170.2 IP.

These are your work horse type starters and all threw substantially fewer innings.

Joe I believe wanted to lessen the load after the long season in 2016. That I believe will be a major factor in pushing Montgomery and Butler in as 2 inning guys.

You could basically go 6 with a starter and run 2 innings with Mike then go strait to Morrow. Then the next day go 6 then 1 with Strop and 1 with Edwards and Wilson closing. Next day 6 then 2 with Butler and 1 with Morrow. etc. Keeps the pen fresher. Add to it if a starter gets shelled you can piggyback Butler and Montgomery the rest of the game.

It just makes more sense in general.

Now I personally would use Butler in mop up games until he brings up his SO's. What he is running from last year was more low leverage inning fill.
 

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The vast majority of early pulls by Maddon were dictated by the starting pitcher himself. It doesn't take a genius to know that Maddon is really big on pitch counts, probably more so than most. If a pitcher wants to get deeper into the game simply avoid walks and deep counts....be more efficient out there and you can get 7 innings. IMOP, that reason is high on the ladder as to why the Cubs had more interest in Yu than Jake.
 

chibears55

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The vast majority of early pulls by Maddon were dictated by the starting pitcher himself. It doesn't take a genius to know that Maddon is really big on pitch counts, probably more so than most. If a pitcher wants to get deeper into the game simply avoid walks and deep counts....be more efficient out there and you can get 7 innings. IMOP, that reason is high on the ladder as to why the Cubs had more interest in Yu than Jake.
Exactly why....

Darvish 3.29 and 4.69 K/BB last 2 yrs

Arrieta 2.50 and 2.96 K/BB last 2 years

Plus.. Arrieta fastball average dropped to low 90s last year while Darvish was above 95...

They said yesterday he hit 98 with a fastball against the sox

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beckdawg

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The vast majority of early pulls by Maddon were dictated by the starting pitcher himself. It doesn't take a genius to know that Maddon is really big on pitch counts, probably more so than most. If a pitcher wants to get deeper into the game simply avoid walks and deep counts....be more efficient out there and you can get 7 innings. IMOP, that reason is high on the ladder as to why the Cubs had more interest in Yu than Jake.

While I largely agree with you, I would point out that Maddon had an especially quick hook in 2016. The gist of it was if the starter got into any trouble at all he was generally pulled. In 2016 and 2015 he was m ore willing to let a guy like Lester work through trouble he got into.
 

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While I largely agree with you, I would point out that Maddon had an especially quick hook in 2016. The gist of it was if the starter got into any trouble at all he was generally pulled. In 2016 and 2015 he was m ore willing to let a guy like Lester work through trouble he got into.

Yep. I recall Maddon being asked, prior to Arrieta's start of the 2015 WC game, what the pitch count limit was on his starter. He replied "Infinity." He had that much faith in Jake at that point. And, to be honest, it was deserved. Arrieta, right then, was the best pitcher anyone ever saw.

But Joe got bit, first in 2016 when his starters seemed to suffer a bit from fatigue in the post-season (and especially during early 2017), as well as Arrieta and Lackey (and, to a lesser extent, Lester) having control issues throughout 2017.

And bit once, twice shy.

I think Joe is damn well not gonna let himself get into the position where he stays with a pitcher one hitter too long. He'd always like to pull the guy one hitter early, rather than one hitter late. And again, he got bit following his instincts on leaving starters in early last year, so his hook has gotten shorter. And for some guys, like for example Hendricks, his hook has always been short.

We'll have to see if he relaxes and leaves some guys in the game a little longer this year. It will help if our offense is not only in the top 3 in MLB, but also manages that feat by maintaining a consistent output, not by having greater offensive production times two than any other team for a few weeks, and thereafter for a week be unable to buy a hit with men on base for love or money... :(
 

chibears55

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Justin Hancock might be the surprise addition to pen...

I think him or Anthony Bass will battle it out

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