OT: Lebron

Crystallas · May 8, 2018

Grimson said:
I agree with you on the fact that it would entice players looking for a max contract into a potentially unconventional market. However, there already isn't enough starpower in the league to fill out the current teams. Every year you can pin down maybe 6 teams that even have a remote shot at winning it all. Add two more, spread out the talent and it hurts parity even more.

Maybe on a year to year basis. But a star player may be in the MVP race one year, and drop off the next. In fact, if you look at the year to year, those names change a lot. So I would say over time, you have less teams with multiple MVP candidates, with less all-NBA teamers filling a single team. Less concentration of talent in one division and less suck in one division. So it goes from 4 teams that are in contention to that 6-team mark you suggest would happen. Either way, it's an improvement. I think more teams would improve, just because I don't think every team is going to pay a max contract just to have a single star caliber player. The valuations will adjust when those max caps are tweaked or even completely removed.

Here, just as an over-simplified method of seeing where the concentration of star-power lies.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2016.html

Then go back every year and see how half the list fluctuates and the other half is relatively similar. And of the players that are returning, that doesn't mean they necessarily win more titles. Of course, bird rights will make certain things more interesting with the fixes I propose.

Chief Walking Stick · May 8, 2018

Crystallas said:
Maybe on a year to year basis. But a star player may be in the MVP race one year, and drop off the next. In fact, if you look at the year to year, those names change a lot. So I would say over time, you have less teams with multiple MVP candidates, with less all-NBA teamers filling a single team. Less concentration of talent in one division and less suck in one division. So it goes from 4 teams that are in contention to that 6-team mark you suggest would happen. Either way, it's an improvement. I think more teams would improve, just because I don't think every team is going to pay a max contract just to have a single star caliber player. The valuations will adjust when those max caps are tweaked or even completely removed.

Here, just as an over-simplified method of seeing where the concentration of star-power lies.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2016.html

Then go back every year and see how half the list fluctuates and the other half is relatively similar. And of the players that are returning, that doesn't mean they necessarily win more titles. Of course, bird rights will make certain things more interesting with the fixes I propose.

Or just get rid of conferences completely and seed the playoff tournament by record alone (also schedule regular season accordingly). The west is clearly dominant. If LeBron played in the west his whole career he wouldn't have made all of these finals. I want to see the best vs the best, not LeBron vs the best of the west.

Crystallas · May 8, 2018

Grimson said:
Or just get rid of conferences completely and seed the playoff tournament by record alone (also schedule regular season accordingly). The west is clearly dominant. If LeBron played in the west his whole career he wouldn't have made all of these finals. I want to see the best vs the best, not LeBron vs the best of the west.

Creates a travel issue and reduces rivalry opportunities(which then makes another top-heavy issue when it comes to promoting the league).

What I said would go further to balancing the league. Getting rid of conferences, even if just for playoffs, can still be exploited. Because there are two conferences, we don't see players and teams exploiting it. LeBron would still sign with teams in a manner that gave him the easiest path. Silver really loves these simple concepts but ignore potential strategy, so you'll likely have your wish with this one. But IMO it would only be a benefit in the near short-term and wind up being net worse off for fans and players alike.

Scoot26 · May 9, 2018

Crystallas said:
Creates a travel issue and reduces rivalry opportunities(which then makes another top-heavy issue when it comes to promoting the league).

What I said would go further to balancing the league. Getting rid of conferences, even if just for playoffs, can still be exploited. Because there are two conferences, we don't see players and teams exploiting it. LeBron would still sign with teams in a manner that gave him the easiest path. Silver really loves these simple concepts but ignore potential strategy, so you'll likely have your wish with this one. But IMO it would only be a benefit in the near short-term and wind up being net worse off for fans and players alike.

Except for probably 2008-2012, the east has been incredibly weak since Jordan retired.

I understand the travel issue and likely don't see it changing from that aspect. I do think bigger divisions would be helpful, but not sure the league can expand without a hard cap and elimination of max contracts. Would basically ensure LeBron, Durant, and Curry plays with a bunch of minimum contract players. Would spread things out more. It would probably make the product less interesting to the masses as well.

CODE_BLUE56 · May 9, 2018

Scoot26 said:
Except for probably 2008-2012, the east has been incredibly weak since Jordan retired.

I understand the travel issue and likely don't see it changing from that aspect. I do think bigger divisions would be helpful, but not sure the league can expand without a hard cap and elimination of max contracts. Would basically ensure LeBron, Durant, and Curry plays with a bunch of minimum contract players. Would spread things out more. It would probably make the product less interesting to the masses as well.

There is already a good amount of disinterest towards the regular season due to length, lack of effort, and generally a number of teams people just aren't interested in. I'm not sure expanding would be the best move with that in mind. If you restructure the CBA a bit as you are mentioning, it would likely work a little better. I'm just not sure that it would make the product more interesting.

Crystallas · May 9, 2018

Scoot26 said:
Except for probably 2008-2012, the east has been incredibly weak since Jordan retired.

I understand the travel issue and likely don't see it changing from that aspect. I do think bigger divisions would be helpful, but not sure the league can expand without a hard cap and elimination of max contracts. Would basically ensure LeBron, Durant, and Curry plays with a bunch of minimum contract players. Would spread things out more. It would probably make the product less interesting to the masses as well.

They need all of it. The expansion1 AND moving two teams to the east2 AND fixing MAX contracts3 AND tweaking the lotto4 AND rule enforcement5 AND division restructure6 that includes giving top 4 division finishers the top 4 seeds, unlike the NHL two division structure per conference.

Lots of ANDs in there, but it needs be done in one swoop. If one is not done, but the rest are, then we're back at square one. Yes, even if rule enforcement doesn't change, because the NBA can then manipulate outcomes, or if the divisions don't change, because the NBA would lose one of it's legs to promote rivalries over time.

A hard cap might not help or it might help, that one I'm not totally sure on because big markets can still be stupid with luxury tax payrolls and help small markets in many ways. It's much harder for small markets to protect themselves in a sport where starpower means that much more. So in a way, the soft cap still can be more beneficial as a whole by preventing certain NHL-like issues and MLB-like issues at the same time while catering to basketball unique issues. Of course, tweaks still need to happen.

Just remember, stars are made. They are hyped and promoted. If you spread out talent in the league, more teams will have stars just because they do get that PR treatment. Take the 4th best player on OKC in 2012, and in a few years hes an MVP candidate by himself on another team. The league benefits from spreading talent around more than concentrating talent.

zack54attack · May 10, 2018

Curious to see what Toronto does with that team this offseason.

anotheridiot · May 11, 2018

Remember that thread I posted about the bulls getting warned about tanking. Man, it sure seemed like the Cavs did their share of tanking to get to the 4 hole once they knew they were not gonna get #1.

That Danny Ainge master plan about his draft picks sure seems to show they would have been alright to have never traded for Kyrie, but when the cavs win this series, I guess we can say it would have been different if Kyrie and Hayward.

Hayward is running and doing basketball drills, but the Celtics say no matter what he is out.

clonetrooper264 · May 11, 2018

anotheridiot said:
Hayward is running and doing basketball drills, but the Celtics say no matter what he is out.

Still a pretty nasty injury to recover from so I don't blame him or them for not playing. Plus, how effective would he be coming straight into the conference finals after not playing the whole year? Let's just hope he and Kyrie are healthy next year for a rematch.

CODE_BLUE56 · May 11, 2018

clonetrooper264 said:
Still a pretty nasty injury to recover from so I don't blame him or them for not playing. Plus, how effective would he be coming straight into the conference finals after not playing the whole year? Let's just hope he and Kyrie are healthy next year for a rematch.

Yea, I have a hard time seeing Hayward coming back immediately improving the Celtics as a team, and honestly could hold the team back if anything. It would be easier for him to return during the regular season. This isn't the time to try to get someone back up to speed after being out so long.

zack54attack · May 14, 2018

ECF might be the end for LeBron in Cleveland. Doesn't look good after Game 1.. But people said the same thing in the first round.

Scoot26 · May 14, 2018

zack54attack said:
ECF might be the end for LeBron in Cleveland. Doesn't look good after Game 1.. But people said the same thing in the first round.

Yeah, haven't you learned anything? LeBron losing game 1 means nothing.

Put him in a 2-0, maybe we'll talk. Even then I wouldn't count him out.

clonetrooper264 · May 14, 2018

Scoot26 said:
Yeah, haven't you learned anything? LeBron losing game 1 means nothing.

Put him in a 2-0, maybe we'll talk. Even then I wouldn't count him out.

Lebron did the same thing against the Bulls each time they played each other...Lebron always came out on top. I will continue to think so until proven otherwise

Axl Rose · May 14, 2018

Scoot26 said:
Yeah, haven't you learned anything? LeBron losing game 1 means nothing.

Put him in a 2-0, maybe we'll talk. Even then I wouldn't count him out.

Even if they were down 3-0 i'd expect them to win 4 in a row.

LeBron isn't done until he is.

zack54attack · May 22, 2018

zack54attack said:
ECF might be the end for LeBron in Cleveland. Doesn't look good after Game 1.. But people said the same thing in the first round.

Whoops.

Enasic · May 22, 2018

Cavs came back 3-1 against GS....beat them in game 7 in Oakland....and people thought LeBron is done going down 2-0 to the Celtics lol...

CODE_BLUE56 · May 22, 2018

Enasic said:
Cavs came back 3-1 against GS....beat them in game 7 in Oakland....and people thought LeBron is done going down 2-0 to the Celtics lol...

The problem for the Celtics is that LeBron is by far the best player on the floor, even if their team top-down may be a little better.

Enasic · May 22, 2018

CODE_BLUE56 said:
The problem for the Celtics is that LeBron is by far the best player on the floor, even if their team top-down may be a little better.

Yes. That is a huge problem. Not only is he the best player on the floor but he's arguably the best player to ever step foot on the floor. I myself tend to put him over MJ more and more each passing year, but it's very close. I have no qualms with putting them as equals. But the guy just impacts the game in so many different ways and as much as anyone I've ever watched play. Fans take it for granted because we have just become accustomed to it and a lot of people like to hate on him. Which is fine, fans hated on MJ too (especially Knicks/Pacers/Pistons/Jazz fans lol), but you have to give credit where credit is due.

I think the series ultimately goes 7 but I'm not betting against LeBron. Another thing that doesn't get talked about is the insane transformation of the Cavs from last year and this year. The Cavs team from last season barely resembled the team that started the year....and then they traded what, 5-6 guys MID-SEASON??? Just uncanny turnover and he's right back in the ECF like nothing. It's amazing, really.

CODE_BLUE56 · May 22, 2018

Enasic said:
Yes. That is a huge problem. Not only is he the best player on the floor but he's arguably the best player to ever step foot on the floor. I myself tend to put him over MJ more and more each passing year, but it's very close. I have no qualms with putting them as equals. But the guy just impacts the game in so many different ways and as much as anyone I've ever watched play. Fans take it for granted because we have just become accustomed to it and a lot of people like to hate on him. Which is fine, fans hated on MJ too (especially Knicks/Pacers/Pistons/Jazz fans lol), but you have to give credit where credit is due.

I think the series ultimately goes 7 but I'm not betting against LeBron. Another thing that doesn't get talked about is the insane transformation of the Cavs from last year and this year. The Cavs team from last season barely resembled the team that started the year....and then they traded what, 5-6 guys MID-SEASON??? Just uncanny turnover and he's right back in the ECF like nothing. It's amazing, really.

LeBron is playing some of his best basketball this postseason for sure. He has control of the game like no one I've seen. I find it very difficult to put LeBron over Jordan though because Jordan was incredible on both ends of the floor and always showed up when it was the biggest stage. At the height of their careers, I could see a very good argument for LeBron, but overall it's still clearly Jordan for me.

Anyway, if Boston had Kyrie then this would be a different story. He can take over a game and close out in the 4th. Not as good as LeBron obviously, but it's a clear answer on the other side. Rozier, Horford, and Tatum just aren't at that level.

Enasic · May 22, 2018

CODE_BLUE56 said:
LeBron is playing some of his best basketball this postseason for sure. He has control of the game like no one I've seen. I find it very difficult to put LeBron over Jordan though because Jordan was incredible on both ends of the floor and always showed up when it was the biggest stage. At the height of their careers, I could see a very good argument for LeBron, but overall it's still clearly Jordan for me.

Anyway, if Boston had Kyrie then this would be a different story. He can take over a game and close out in the 4th. Not as good as LeBron obviously, but it's a clear answer on the other side. Rozier, Horford, and Tatum just aren't at that level.

Would have been beautiful if Kyrie was healthy. Super interesting for sure.

OT: Lebron

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