IST: Cubs @ Kansas City

TC in Mississippi said:

Javy is making a serious run for MVP. You figure the top 5 will come among these 7 guys: Carpenter, Baez, Arenado, Freeman, Yelich, Cain and Suarez. Because Carpenter and Suarez are not on contenders and aren't going to be having that amazing season it takes to overcome that you have to figure they're on the outside looking in. If the voting was tomorrow it would be a tight race between Baez, Freeman and Arenado.

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Was just about to comment on this, too. If the season ends today I think Baez is the NL MVP and I think it hinges on Baez carrying his team more than the other guys are. The Rockies are a weak contender and Albies gets as much credit for the success of the Braves as Freeman. When you look at Bryant and Rizzo's struggles this year, Baez has really had the Cubs on his back the entire season. Will be interesting to see how they all finish.

Its really a tough call when Javy looked as bad as he did the first two at bats. The true love of the game goes to Javy, but so many things he does are going to start alot of bad habits on young ball players. We already see Russell running and making throws that Javy would make, Contrares with the running and too much throwing as well. The real old school voters do not see the love of the game as respect for the game.

fatbeard said:

Was just about to comment on this, too. If the season ends today I think Baez is the NL MVP and I think it hinges on Baez carrying his team more than the other guys are. The Rockies are a weak contender and Albies gets as much credit for the success of the Braves as Freeman.

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The concept of team success in MVP voting is bullshit and a recent (1980s aberration). MVP doesnt mean best player on a contending team. It means best player. This notion of best player on contedning team was started by the morons at ESPN in the 80s. Up until then it was "best player', the way it should be. To think otherwise would be to deny that players like Andre Dawson, Ernie Banks, Ted Williams, Ty Cobb had any chance to be MVP

Omeletpants said:

The concept of team success in MVP voting is bullshit and a recent (1980s aberration). MVP doesnt mean best player on a contending team. It means best player. This notion of best player on contedning team was started by the morons at ESPN in the 80s. Up until then it was "best player', the way it should be. To think otherwise would be to deny that players like Andre Dawson, Ernie Banks, Ted Williams, Ty Cobb had any chance to be MVP

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First, there is no clear-cut definition of "MVP"; BBWAA leaves it up to the individual voters to decide what that means. Second, team success and a player's value relative to that is one of the many factors that voters can take into account when assessing a player's overall season. Third, in a season like this year's NL MVP race where there are several equally-qualified candidates, it makes sense to use value relative to team success as a differentiating factor between the candidates. And that's where Baez could pull ahead of the others. That is precisely what happened when Sosa won over McGwire in 1998 despite McGwire having an objectively superior season (7.1 fWAR vs 8.5 fWAR).

Omeletpants said:

The concept of team success in MVP voting is bullshit and a recent (1980s aberration). MVP doesnt mean best player on a contending team. It means best player. This notion of best player on contedning team was started by the morons at ESPN in the 80s. Up until then it was "best player', the way it should be. To think otherwise would be to deny that players like Andre Dawson, Ernie Banks, Ted Williams, Ty Cobb had any chance to be MVP

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Better teams simply get better coverage and are more on the minds of the out of town voters. If you never watch west coast games because you are on the east coast, then you pretty much look at numbers and highlight shows. That is the reason the contenders players get more votes. In Javy's case, he stepped up when Bryant went down. I know about Arenado, but do not see the infectious effect he has on his team mates. He is more of a guy that gets his.

fatbeard said:

First, there is no clear-cut definition of "MVP"; BBWAA leaves it up to the individual voters to decide what that means. Second, team success and a player's value relative to that is one of the many factors that voters can take into account when assessing a player's overall season. Third, in a season like this year's NL MVP race where there are several equally-qualified candidates, it makes sense to use value relative to team success as a differentiating factor between the candidates. And that's where Baez could pull ahead of the others. That is precisely what happened when Sosa won over McGwire in 1998 despite McGwire having an objectively superior season (7.1 fWAR vs 8.5 fWAR).

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Nonsense. The origional intention was best player. ESPN and the writers co-opted the definition. Tell Ted Williams he didnt desrve to be MVP becuase he didnt play on the yankees

anotheridiot said:

Better teams simply get better coverage and are more on the minds of the out of town voters. If you never watch west coast games because you are on the east coast, then you pretty much look at numbers and highlight shows. That is the reason the contenders players get more votes. In Javy's case, he stepped up when Bryant went down. I know about Arenado, but do not see the infectious effect he has on his team mates. He is more of a guy that gets his.

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More nonsense. When Ernie Banks won twice there was no national coverage and hardly anyone saw him play. The voters picked the best player, not the "Best Palyer on a Contending Team that a lot of Writers saw Play"

Javy is top 5. If his OBA was over .350 this would be no contest

Omeletpants said:

Nonsense. The origional intention was best player. ESPN and the writers co-opted the definition. Tell Ted Williams he didnt desrve to be MVP becuase he didnt play on the yankees

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Actually, the BBWAA MVP award is based on the 1922 AL award created to honor "the baseball player who is of the greatest all-around service to his club". The NL later adopted the AL voting format minus the restriction against winning multiple awards and this became the modern BBWAA MVP Award in 1931 (this restriction was why Ruth only won one MVP). Nowhere is the criteria for BBWAA MVP defined but the original charter for the AL award clearly implied that player value relative to team success could be taken into account (greatest all-around service to his club). A player carrying his team is obviously of a greater all-around service to his club than a candidate on a team of All-Stars.

Thanks for playing.

fatbeard said:

Actually, the BBWAA MVP award is based on the 1922 AL award created to honor "the baseball player who is of the greatest all-around service to his club". The NL later adopted the AL voting format minus the restriction against winning multiple awards and this became the modern BBWAA MVP Award in 1931 (this restriction was why Ruth only won one MVP). Nowhere is the criteria for BBWAA MVP defined but the original charter for the AL award clearly implied that player value relative to team success could be taken into account (greatest all-around service to his club). A player carrying his team is obviously of a greater all-around service to his club than a candidate on a team of All-Stars.

Thanks for playing.

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Nope. From the start till the 80s the standard was for best player in the league. THat's how Williams and Banks won the award on terrible teams

Omeletpants said:

Nope. From the start till the 80s the standard was for best player in the league. THat's how Williams and Banks won the award on terrible teams

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In 1935, Gabby Hartnett won the NL MVP. He accumulated just 5.1 fWAR, but the Cubs won 100 games that year.

Six other players had better seasons than him, including Arky Vaughan who nearly doubled Hartnett's fWAR with 9.6. But the Pirates won only 86 games that year.

Thanks for playing.

fatbeard said:

In 1935, Gabby Hartnett won the NL MVP. He accumulated just 5.1 fWAR, but the Cubs won 100 games that year.

Six other players had better seasons than him, including Arky Vaughan who nearly doubled Hartnett's fWAR with 9.6. But the Pirates won only 86 games that year.

Thanks for playing.

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Doesnt prove you point. Keep trying to justify an unsupportable position

Omeletpants said:

Doesnt prove you point. Keep trying to justify an unsupportable position

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Womp womp.

Next time, pick a hill to die on that can't be disproved with two minutes of research.

TC in Mississippi said:

Javy is making a serious run for MVP. You figure the top 5 will come among these 7 guys: Carpenter, Baez, Arenado, Freeman, Yelich, Cain and Suarez. Because Carpenter and Suarez are not on contenders and aren't going to be having that amazing season it takes to overcome that you have to figure they're on the outside looking in. If the voting was tomorrow it would be a tight race between Baez, Freeman and Arenado.

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Baez seems to get dismissed, nationally, as an MVP candidate and it makes no sense to me. In my opinion he has most certainly meant more to his team than any other player, definitely a biased opinion. I don’t ever remember a player making as many game changing plays as he has, it’s almost become expected. In the past few years the cubs had a lot of different guys that would make the difference, but it seems like this year in close games it is almost always Baez with the hit, defensive play or base running play that turns it around or opens things up.

To me when it comes to those other players, Carpenter would have to end up blowing everyone’s numbers away because he was so bad early. The other guys have done it all year.

Arenado is the same thing as every year, except his numbers might actually be slightly worse this year than usual. He’s been incredible and should have an MVP by now, but it seems like as long as he’s in Colorado they don’t care what he’s doing. I also think his couple game suspension can hurt him.

Yelich and Cain probably take votes from each other. But if Yelich keeps up his current streak he may have a chance. I never realized how good that kid is. He just looks gangly which may hurt his appeal for the award, as well as being in Milwaukee, but his numbers definitely put him in that conversation. Milwaukee could need to win the division for a player to earn the award, which just comes from the players market hurting them.

Suarez and Freeman I think are the biggest competition. I kind of believe Suarez is going to have to win the rbi battle with Baez to get the nod. Freeman I think is the odds on favorite. It seems like analysts remembered this year how incredible of a player he is. Every time I’ve heard a sports analyst talk about NL MVP Freeman is really the only name I’ve heard mentioned. It’ll be interesting to see what happens. I think Javy deserves it, but Freeman gets it.

Arenado is a career .265 hitter away from Coors Field. He puts up numbers every year but they're not real. I'd be surprised if the writers ever reward him with an MVP.

I think it is Freedman vs Goldschmidt myself. Both guys are over .380 OBA

I just really think the voters are going to look at Javy and see that glaring OBA and discredit him for it.

He maybe the best all around player in the league but as far as MVP you have to stand out in HR mashing to overcome a lacking like OBA. D wise that is a GG convo.

IMO it hey should factor pitching into the MVP race as the hitters are really not separated.

I’m kinda discrediting Muncy also in this. .250 BA is subpar and puts himself behind those 2.

Omeletpants said:

The concept of team success in MVP voting is bullshit and a recent (1980s aberration). MVP doesnt mean best player on a contending team. It means best player. This notion of best player on contedning team was started by the morons at ESPN in the 80s. Up until then it was "best player', the way it should be. To think otherwise would be to deny that players like Andre Dawson, Ernie Banks, Ted Williams, Ty Cobb had any chance to be MVP

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I agree 100%. Taking the best payer off the division winners vs. the guy who was best overall is silly to me.

My argument against has always been to point out that to use the logic that it has to be someone from a playoff team is to suggest that If a player has a great season and does not win due to his team's record, the people who think that way are essentially saying "If your team adds two stud starters, a great closer, and better position players, YOU become "more valuable" next year."

Illogical.

CSF77 said:

I think it is Freedman vs Goldschmidt myself. Both guys are over .380 OBA

I just really think the voters are going to look at Javy and see that glaring OBA and discredit him for it.

He maybe the best all around player in the league but as far as MVP you have to stand out in HR mashing to overcome a lacking like OBA. D wise that is a GG convo.

IMO it hey should factor pitching into the MVP race as the hitters are really not separated.

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a) OBA/OBP is a component of OPS. If they look at OPS, Javy ranks well, in spite of the OBP.

b) He doesn't enough GG consideration because he plays multiple positions, but he is great at all of them.

c) Pitching IS in consideration for MVP - and I think they already have that award, so I wish it wasn't.

CSF77 said:

I think it is Freedman vs Goldschmidt myself. Both guys are over .380 OBA

I just really think the voters are going to look at Javy and see that glaring OBA and discredit him for it.

He maybe the best all around player in the league but as far as MVP you have to stand out in HR mashing to overcome a lacking like OBA. D wise that is a GG convo.

IMO it hey should factor pitching into the MVP race as the hitters are really not separated.

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Not disagreeing with your prognosis, just the way the award is perceived. It's not just an offensive award or at least it shouldn't be. It should be an all around award where offense, defense and baserunning have equal parts. While both Goldy and Freeman are good fielders, they do not change games with their defense and they certainly don't with their baserunning. Baez has won games on all three parts and has done it multiple times on each. The season he's having is very unique and something that neither Goldy or Freeman are in any way capable of.