Who your choice???

chibears55

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I know Javy numbers are for110 games

Who your pick ?
2016 Bryant
2018 Baez


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CSF77

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2016 Bryant: 148 wRC+
2018 Baez: 141 wRC+

Pretty close
 

beckdawg

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Baez's numbers don't look sustainable to me. Biggest issue is he's running a .349 BABIP. The problem with that is that his AVG/OBP looks nice at .302/.335 but if that BABIP regresses toward .300 he suddenly looks less interesting. I mean if you were to say it only drops his average 35 points he goes down to .267/.300. The majority of his value right now is coming from his power numbers. But like the average/obp, I don't seriously think he's going to continue to post a 26.0% HR/FB rate. His career rate is 18.4%. MLB average is 12.7% for non-pitchers. So, even if you assume his bat speed gives him better than average power, the career mark already accounts for that. I'm not sure I buy him being over double league average. Those numbers put him in that Stanton/Judge/Joey Gallo power range which is rich for my tastes.

Also troubling is the fact these improved numbers aren't coming because of a refined offensive approach. If anything the opposite is true. His swing rate has gone up every year from 46.8% to 51.5%, to 52.6% to 56.2% and this year it's 60.9%. That's also true of pitches outside the strike zone. where he's gone from 39.5% to 39.3% to 42.9%, to 45.1% and this year is at 49%. In other words, I think pitchers are going to figure out how to handle him and he'll need to adjust again. He's currently seeing 68% first pitch strikes. I'm guessing based on that he's ambushing guys early in counts. One would assume he'll start seeing stuff out of the zone at the start of an at bat quickly.
 

chibears55

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Baez's numbers don't look sustainable to me. Biggest issue is he's running a .349 BABIP. The problem with that is that his AVG/OBP looks nice at .302/.335 but if that BABIP regresses toward .300 he suddenly looks less interesting. I mean if you were to say it only drops his average 35 points he goes down to .267/.300. The majority of his value right now is coming from his power numbers. But like the average/obp, I don't seriously think he's going to continue to post a 26.0% HR/FB rate. His career rate is 18.4%. MLB average is 12.7% for non-pitchers. So, even if you assume his bat speed gives him better than average power, the career mark already accounts for that. I'm not sure I buy him being over double league average. Those numbers put him in that Stanton/Judge/Joey Gallo power range which is rich for my tastes.

Also troubling is the fact these improved numbers aren't coming because of a refined offensive approach. If anything the opposite is true. His swing rate has gone up every year from 46.8% to 51.5%, to 52.6% to 56.2% and this year it's 60.9%. That's also true of pitches outside the strike zone. where he's gone from 39.5% to 39.3% to 42.9%, to 45.1% and this year is at 49%. In other words, I think pitchers are going to figure out how to handle him and he'll need to adjust again. He's currently seeing 68% first pitch strikes. I'm guessing based on that he's ambushing guys early in counts. One would assume he'll start seeing stuff out of the zone at the start of an at bat quickly.
Wow way to make these numbers depressing..
Lol

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SilenceS

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Baez's numbers don't look sustainable to me. Biggest issue is he's running a .349 BABIP. The problem with that is that his AVG/OBP looks nice at .302/.335 but if that BABIP regresses toward .300 he suddenly looks less interesting. I mean if you were to say it only drops his average 35 points he goes down to .267/.300. The majority of his value right now is coming from his power numbers. But like the average/obp, I don't seriously think he's going to continue to post a 26.0% HR/FB rate. His career rate is 18.4%. MLB average is 12.7% for non-pitchers. So, even if you assume his bat speed gives him better than average power, the career mark already accounts for that. I'm not sure I buy him being over double league average. Those numbers put him in that Stanton/Judge/Joey Gallo power range which is rich for my tastes.

Also troubling is the fact these improved numbers aren't coming because of a refined offensive approach. If anything the opposite is true. His swing rate has gone up every year from 46.8% to 51.5%, to 52.6% to 56.2% and this year it's 60.9%. That's also true of pitches outside the strike zone. where he's gone from 39.5% to 39.3% to 42.9%, to 45.1% and this year is at 49%. In other words, I think pitchers are going to figure out how to handle him and he'll need to adjust again. He's currently seeing 68% first pitch strikes. I'm guessing based on that he's ambushing guys early in counts. One would assume he'll start seeing stuff out of the zone at the start of an at bat quickly.

Baez babip will always be higher than normal due to his hard contact. Another thing I would like to see, Baez doesn’t foul off many pitches. He puts a a lot of his contact in play. This has been building. It hasn’t just showed up over night. He does lay off pitches he used to not do. The slider off the plate is a big one. Also, his homer in spray chart is excellent. It’s spread all across the diamond. Baez has gone the other way with authority all year. His homerin the other way was an easy 400 plus foot homer in to right center. The kids power is legit. It has always been legit but now he is spraying it. He is feasting off of breaking balls right now. It isn’t fastballs. We all know he can hit that but during his hot 180 abs. He has just decimated breaking balls in the zone.


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SilenceS

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I remember when the Cubs won the series. The next season they did the introductions. They announced Russell as a future MVP. I’m sure Baez remembers that.


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CubsFaninMN

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I will say that maintaining career-high numbers, and running across luck like maintaining a ridiculously high BABIP for most of a season, are exactly the criteria by which we should select an MVP.

The MVP award is not an evaluation of a player's career, just of which player really had the most outstanding year in one given season. You can maintain luck and peak performance for enough of a single season to legitimately earn an MVP award, even if such things as chase rate and lack of on-base will prevent you from ever being considered for the Hall of Fame... ;)
 

SilenceS

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I will say that maintaining career-high numbers, and running across luck like maintaining a ridiculously high BABIP for most of a season, are exactly the criteria by which we should select an MVP.

The MVP award is not an evaluation of a player's career, just of which player really had the most outstanding year in one given season. You can maintain luck and peak performance for enough of a single season to legitimately earn an MVP award, even if such things as chase rate and lack of on-base will prevent you from ever being considered for the Hall of Fame... ;)

Until 15 years ago, very few cared about walks. The funny part is the game is changing again and the value of just walks is starting to lose steam and other factors are being brought up in the circles. It’s like football and how pass happy the nfl was and it is transitioning to finding space for an individual talent over just throwing the football a 1000 times.


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FrankieLyrical

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With Javy hitting the way he is and adding what he does on the basepath and on defense... I'd go Javy
 

beckdawg

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Baez babip will always be higher than normal due to his hard contact. Another thing I would like to see, Baez doesn’t foul off many pitches. He puts a a lot of his contact in play. This has been building. It hasn’t just showed up over night. He does lay off pitches he used to not do. The slider off the plate is a big one. Also, his homer in spray chart is excellent. It’s spread all across the diamond. Baez has gone the other way with authority all year. His homerin the other way was an easy 400 plus foot homer in to right center. The kids power is legit. It has always been legit but now he is spraying it. He is feasting off of breaking balls right now. It isn’t fastballs. We all know he can hit that but during his hot 180 abs. He has just decimated breaking balls in the zone.


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It's not just his hard contact that gives him high babip. It's also his speed. that being said, a .350 BABIP is pretty absurd to keep. All i'm saying is if it falls to say .320 thats really going to effect his offensive numbers. As for the power, obviously he's always had that as well but again all i'm saying is I'm not sure the pace he's currently on is how good he really is.

Stats also don't say he's laying off pitches outside the zone. He's swinging and missing more at pitches outside the zone than last year. Last year his o-swing% was 45.2% on pitches outside the zone. This year it's 47.2%. Last year his o-contact% was 50.3% this year it is 52.9%. Obviously there's a little variance there but doesn't look to me like that's where he's improved. Where he's looked to improved to me is his contact on in zone balls. That's gone from 77.8% to 83.1%. If you look at his heat map he's basically destroying anything in the zone except the away top corner and right in on his hands.
 

CubsFaninMN

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It's not just his hard contact that gives him high babip. It's also his speed. that being said, a .350 BABIP is pretty absurd to keep. All i'm saying is if it falls to say .320 thats really going to effect his offensive numbers. As for the power, obviously he's always had that as well but again all i'm saying is I'm not sure the pace he's currently on is how good he really is.

Stats also don't say he's laying off pitches outside the zone. He's swinging and missing more at pitches outside the zone than last year. Last year his o-swing% was 45.2% on pitches outside the zone. This year it's 47.2%. Last year his o-contact% was 50.3% this year it is 52.9%. Obviously there's a little variance there but doesn't look to me like that's where he's improved. Where he's looked to improved to me is his contact on in zone balls. That's gone from 77.8% to 83.1%. If you look at his heat map he's basically destroying anything in the zone except the away top corner and right in on his hands.

You know, I get what you're saying about Baez' chase rate for the year. But -- and I agree, it's a subjective impression -- it just seems to me that he's chasing on strikes one and two. And fouling off about half of those, even when they are way low and away, his worst chase area. He's getting, it seems like, fewer third strikes chasing, and a better pitches-per-at-bat rate than earlier this year, fouling off balls outside the zone that he can't stop himself from swinging at instead of always punching out on them.

Is there a good way to check his chase rate just for the past, say, 20 or 30 games, while he's been having the best results? And seeing how many of his K's are coming on swinging third strikes? Again, it's an impression, but it just seems like he's improving in those areas.

So, while playing within his free-swinging game, Baez does seem to be finding ways to not make outs when it's really important to not make an out. Yes, part of that is luck. Part is skill, and part is, as Maddon always accused Contreras of doing, playing like your hair is on fire.

Baez has always played like his hair is on fire. God help the Cubs if he ever stops playing that way. That's the main reason Maddon keeps saying he doesn't want to try and "cure" Baez' free-swinging habits. He just wants the guy to focus them better, sure he'll get good results if he does that. And it really looks like Joe has been right about that all along. Javy had to find his own way to stop making outs and instead make big plays at bat when the team really needs it. And his own way is the only way that will work, for him.
 

beckdawg

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Is there a good way to check his chase rate just for the past, say, 20 or 30 games, while he's been having the best results? And seeing how many of his K's are coming on swinging third strikes? Again, it's an impression, but it just seems like he's improving in those areas.

Eh... for plate discipline not really afaik. Baseball reference might be able to do last 30/90 days but i tend to prefer fangraphs presentation. Bref tends to feel really clunky to use. For most other stuff the split tool on fangraph's player page is really useful. You can set dates and such. But that only has standard data(box score stats), advanced data like k rate and such and batted ball data. You could probably look at his k rate and walk rate over that time and make an educated guess though.
 

anotheridiot

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Carpenter with 31 last night. If he pulls them to a wild card spot it should get to a two man race.
 

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