IST: Cubs @ Nationals

CSF77

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Honestly I see it as Joe has no room to lose with Mil on their nuts.

If the would have gone 2-1 vs 1-2 then this game wouldn’t have been must win and Joe could have gone “B” league game.

I see it as Morrow is due back next week and honestly until then I would give the 9th to Chavez. He has done a excellent job up to now.
 

CubsFaninMN

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Honestly I see it as Joe has no room to lose with Mil on their nuts.

If the would have gone 2-1 vs 1-2 then this game wouldn’t have been must win and Joe could have gone “B” league game.

I see it as Morrow is due back next week and honestly until then I would give the 9th to Chavez. He has done a excellent job up to now.

I doubt it will *just* be Chavez taking the ball to get the last three outs. I think Joe will be cranky because he has to get outside of his comfort zone a bit and work match-ups really tightly in late innings, until he gets either Strop or Morrow back.

Wilson seems to be in Joe's good graces, as does Rosario. The problem is, they are needed to take innings from the 5th through the 8th. You'd want to have a large lead before handing the ball off to some of these AAA guys in the middle innings. And more especially, you need those guys shoring up the middle and the set-up positions when we get to a playoff roster. To be honest, I'd much rather see Strop back and setting up for a healthy Morrow. Or vice-versa. Meaning you can use Wilson and CJ to set up, and not trust Duensing or Kintzler to hold a lead -- which they haven't been able to do very well in the second half, here.

Just my guess, though. The only person's opinion about all of this that really matters is Joe's, and he sure ain't wasting his time discussing it on an online forum... ;)
 

TC in Mississippi

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Honestly I see it as Joe has no room to lose with Mil on their nuts.

If the would have gone 2-1 vs 1-2 then this game wouldn’t have been must win and Joe could have gone “B” league game.

I see it as Morrow is due back next week and honestly until then I would give the 9th to Chavez. He has done a excellent job up to now.

The crazy thing to me is that in this stretch I think we all expected to split the six games with the Brewers and split with the Nationals. We achieved one win short of that and people lose their minds.
 

chibears55

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The crazy thing to me is that in this stretch I think we all expected to split the six games with the Brewers and split with the Nationals. We achieved one win short of that and people lose their minds.
I just wanted them to stay afloat after this tough 14 game stretch and not fall into a losing streak or lose the lead..

Some here lost their minds over me saying that

They barely did, broke even at 7 -7 and lost 3 games off their lead.

They still hold a 2 game lead in loss column and now with an easier schedule the rest of way , all they need to do is stay pace with the Brewers
 

CSF77

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The crazy thing to me is that in this stretch I think we all expected to split the six games with the Brewers and split with the Nationals. We achieved one win short of that and people lose their minds.

Mil is winning everything right now. 4-6 Cubs. 8-2 Mil. Not just the Cubs here.

On the late inning buzz: pecking order right now.

Good
Chavez, Wilson, Cishek

Neutral
Roserio

Bad
Edwards, Chatwood

That is what I’m seeing the pen as right now. Joe wants Edwards to succeed but he has sucked every time. If you want to piss on Joe that is a legit reason. CJ has cost too many games in situations that he should not be in the first place. Then Joe has for the most part ignored Maples which is short sighted as he could become a asset but with no immersion in low pressure situations he has no chance to be anything.


Joe ain’t perfect and if you are going to point fingers that is where it should go.
 

TC in Mississippi

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I just wanted them to stay afloat after this tough 14 game stretch and not fall into a losing streak or lose the lead..

Some here lost their minds over me saying that

They barely did, broke even at 7 -7 and lost 3 games off their lead.

They still hold a 2 game lead in loss column and now with an easier schedule the rest of way , all they need to do is stay pace with the Brewers

I get it but the Brewers are absolutely due for regression. They're playing well above their expected winning percentage. The Cubs have a lot of injuries to overcome but I like the lineup and the pitching matchup tonight.
 

chibears55

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I get it but the Brewers are absolutely due for regression. They're playing well above their expected winning percentage. The Cubs have a lot of injuries to overcome but I like the lineup and the pitching matchup tonight.
Pirates have had the Brewers number this year, hope it continues in the final 6 head to head games..

Cubs just need the SP to step up a little more and go deeper into games and a couple bats outside of Baez and Rizzo to start getting going again..
They need Heyward back sooner rather then later too
 

beckdawg

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I'ma throw up a counter point here. Let's say Maddon pinch hits for strop, they don't score runs and rosario blows the game in the bottom of the 10th. Are the same people now killing him for keeping strop in going to kill him for blowing the game? If you don't like the move that's fine. But you can't have it both ways here. If you dislike the move you can't then kill him when he rests players like the game he basically didn't try to win vs wash by using all the bench guys.

For me as someone who lives closer to STL and gets to see a fair amount of cards games on tv(cable gives me fox sports midwest :-/), Maddon isn't Mattheny. Is Maddon Bobby Cox or whatever top tier manager you would swap him for? Maybe not but it's undeniable he's one of the top 5 managers in baseball. He's probably better at the off the field aspect of the game than being a pro tactician but all that stuff counts the same and I'd rather have a happy club house than a guy who's great a micromanaging a game. Players want to be happy when they go to work and Maddon makes the cubs an attractive place for FAs.
 

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I'ma throw up a counter point here. Let's say Maddon pinch hits for strop, they don't score runs and rosario blows the game in the bottom of the 10th. Are the same people now killing him for keeping strop in going to kill him for blowing the game? If you don't like the move that's fine. But you can't have it both ways here. If you dislike the move you can't then kill him when he rests players like the game he basically didn't try to win vs wash by using all the bench guys.

For me as someone who lives closer to STL and gets to see a fair amount of cards games on tv(cable gives me fox sports midwest :-/), Maddon isn't Mattheny. Is Maddon Bobby Cox or whatever top tier manager you would swap him for? Maybe not but it's undeniable he's one of the top 5 managers in baseball. He's probably better at the off the field aspect of the game than being a pro tactician but all that stuff counts the same and I'd rather have a happy club house than a guy who's great a micromanaging a game. Players want to be happy when they go to work and Maddon makes the cubs an attractive place for FAs.

With all the shit that has gone down this year with injuries, weather, collective hitting slumps and excessive walks....this is arguably the best he's done as a manager. They've been in the Final Four 3 years running and it's the middle of September and they're at least in position to make it four.

For those of you that constantly berate his work...just who exactly would you replace him with? Who could exceed what he has done?
 

chibears55

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I'ma throw up a counter point here. Let's say Maddon pinch hits for strop, they don't score runs and rosario blows the game in the bottom of the 10th. Are the same people now killing him for keeping strop in going to kill him for blowing the game? If you don't like the move that's fine. But you can't have it both ways here. If you dislike the move you can't then kill him when he rests players like the game he basically didn't try to win vs wash by using all the bench guys.

For me as someone who lives closer to STL and gets to see a fair amount of cards games on tv(cable gives me fox sports midwest :-/), Maddon isn't Mattheny. Is Maddon Bobby Cox or whatever top tier manager you would swap him for? Maybe not but it's undeniable he's one of the top 5 managers in baseball. He's probably better at the off the field aspect of the game than being a pro tactician but all that stuff counts the same and I'd rather have a happy club house than a guy who's great a micromanaging a game. Players want to be happy when they go to work and Maddon makes the cubs an attractive place for FAs.
As far as that situation goes...
It a game they pretty much needed to win..

Strop has never gone 6 outs before and Maddon was asking him to get 8 there.
Odds are high that he would of struggled to get through that inning.
So
For me, better odds would of been taken a chance with LaStella coming through and driving in at least 1 run and extending the lead..

Even if the bats failed to extend the lead there, a fresh arm would probably of been a better choice too

I just think the better move was pinch hitting and trying to extend the lead and whether it was a 1 run lead or more, bringing in a fresh arm over hoping Strop could get 3 more outs in a situation he never been in before.

Plus for what it worth..
Maddon decision making for the most part has failed this year more then it has in past when he was almost clicking on all cylinders with every move making him look likeva genious.
 
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DanTown

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I'ma throw up a counter point here. Let's say Maddon pinch hits for strop, they don't score runs and rosario blows the game in the bottom of the 10th. Are the same people now killing him for keeping strop in going to kill him for blowing the game? If you don't like the move that's fine. But you can't have it both ways here. If you dislike the move you can't then kill him when he rests players like the game he basically didn't try to win vs wash by using all the bench guys.

For me as someone who lives closer to STL and gets to see a fair amount of cards games on tv(cable gives me fox sports midwest :-/), Maddon isn't Mattheny. Is Maddon Bobby Cox or whatever top tier manager you would swap him for? Maybe not but it's undeniable he's one of the top 5 managers in baseball. He's probably better at the off the field aspect of the game than being a pro tactician but all that stuff counts the same and I'd rather have a happy club house than a guy who's great a micromanaging a game. Players want to be happy when they go to work and Maddon makes the cubs an attractive place for FAs.

Your win probability goes up far more by getting a multiple run lead versus letting Strop pitch his third inning. Joe has made weird moves before but this on is indefensible I mean, you say he’s not Mathneny but this is some stupid shit Matheny would do and I’d laugh. The only move that compares to this for me in Joes tenure was b9 game 6 of the 16 WS.

He’s far less than Matheny and obviously is great at non-game stuff
 

beckdawg

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He’s far less than Matheny and obviously is great at non-game stuff

That was my point. If you think it was a horrible call like I said that's fine but it's not like he's consistently making moves that make you scratch your head. As for the call itself, I'm not going to sit here and die on that hill defending it. I can see the rationale he was going for. He'd already used most of his bullpen and if the PH doesn't plate more runs you could go into the bottom of the 10th with someone probably rosario who might give the one run lead back. I mean I just don't think that's the worse manager call ever or even of this season.

My issue was more if you're going to have that thought process either safety squeeze, don't let strop swing or tell him not to bust it running down the line. If he doesn't get hurt there the call really isn't that bad. I'd have to look back at the run probability but I believe bases loaded 1 out is still only like 50% run probability so even if you PH it's not a guarantee of more runs scoring.
 

fatbeard

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My favorite yesterday though was on Bleacher Nation when someone, who did not appear to be apt to miss Strop, said "it's not like he's the greatest reliever the Cubs have ever had or anything". Someone then showed him that stats that yes, actually he is the best reliever in Cubs history over a large sample size.

Cubs fans have spent the last four years largely shit-talking and bitching about Strop, despite respected analysts and objective analysis indicating he's one of the finest and most consistent relievers in baseball. Now he hurts his hamstring and the same goombas want to strap on helmets in case the sky bonks them on the head when it falls. It's very amusing.
 

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I love the Maddon nuthugger BS. Maddon is a top manager in the game. It's why Theo went and got him when he was available and fired Renteria. I can disagree with him pulling a SP too soon and riding a RP like a race horse until the horse gets sent to the glue factory, but at the end of the day, give me the name of another manager who could have a team lose its #1 pitcher to FA, have 2 SP signed who didnt pan out, the signed FA closer on the DL, the starting RF on the DL, the MVP 3B on the DL, the defensive SS wiz on the DL, a CF crapping the bed at the plate in the 2nd half and still have the #1 offense in the NL, the 3rd best ERA in the NL, still leading the division, etc.

As for Strop...Strop is a converted infielder. The dude has a great stroke at the plate for a P. Whether Joe was crapping the bed like Game 7 of the WS or just being a players' manager letting Strop get a game AB, it is what it is. I don't blame Maddon for a pulled hammy. Strop could have pulled his hammy covering 1B on a GB to Rizzo. It's easy for people who haven't managed a game past Little League to be overly critical.
 

CubsFaninMN

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I love the Maddon nuthugger BS. Maddon is a top manager in the game. It's why Theo went and got him when he was available and fired Renteria. I can disagree with him pulling a SP too soon and riding a RP like a race horse until the horse gets sent to the glue factory, but at the end of the day, give me the name of another manager who could have a team lose its #1 pitcher to FA, have 2 SP signed who didnt pan out, the signed FA closer on the DL, the starting RF on the DL, the MVP 3B on the DL, the defensive SS wiz on the DL, a CF crapping the bed at the plate in the 2nd half and still have the #1 offense in the NL, the 3rd best ERA in the NL, still leading the division, etc.

As for Strop...Strop is a converted infielder. The dude has a great stroke at the plate for a P. Whether Joe was crapping the bed like Game 7 of the WS or just being a players' manager letting Strop get a game AB, it is what it is. I don't blame Maddon for a pulled hammy. Strop could have pulled his hammy covering 1B on a GB to Rizzo. It's easy for people who haven't managed a game past Little League to be overly critical.

Totally agreed. The kind of push that Strop put on that got him in the hammy is not something you can coach, either in or out. It's a non-thinking, spur-of-the-moment reaction by the runner to the situation. Strop even admits that it was only when he saw the ball coming in to the first baseman with his peripheral vision that he hit high gear and hard-extended his stride to try and get in ahead of the throw. You don't think that through -- you sense something and you react.

Not only can you not easily coach that out of a player, most times you wouldn't want to. You can change a player's instinctive reactions by coaching through a lot of repetition of the new behavior, but it impacts a lot of other things about that player's game. And, honestly, running aggressively has a pretty small overall chance of causing an injury that less aggressive running might avoid.

You want to have a mediocre team? Then by all means, do everything you can to coach aggressive play out of your players. That way they'll stay healthier -- and likely won't play as effectively, because they're not being as aggressive. And as Joe has said about several players, he *never* wants to try and coach aggressiveness out of his players. If Willson or Javy play like their hair is on fire, well, that makes them more valuable on the field and enhances their skill sets. Yes, it also increases the possibility of errors and injuries, but that risk is acceptable vs. the benefits of their aggressive style of play.

Strop's injury is what happens when you try and stock a ball club with young, aggressive players and tell them to go out and play hard. And i guarantee you, if no one is telling Baez to bunt with runners on first and third -- he's totally making that decision on his own -- then no one is trying to micro-manage how hard Strop is hustling down the line.

When it comes down to it, any responsibility for a blown hammy while legging it out to first is totally on the player.

As for Joe in particular, yeah, you can argue that he has relievers he trusts, and those he doesn't. He will always go with a guy in his "trusted" group over another guy, even if that doesn't make sense in terms of a match-up. Maybe that's a failing, but he's gotten good results with it. So I'm not gonna complain about it now... ;)
 

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