SuperDitkaMan's Nagy and Pace Thread

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gallagher

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WTF are you talking about??? Did you miss the part where we would have won 9 games THIS YEAR if he would have used Howard more?? 9 wins would have got us in this year...

You cant change one variable in the past and presume that no other variables would change. The other teams would have changed their play-calling in reaction to the new situations, their defenses may have geared more towards stopping Howard had we attempted to run more frequently, hell they may have scored the go-ahead touchdown with less time for us to make comebacks.

Sure, it is POSSIBLE that we would have won more games, I would even cede to you that we would have won more than 3 games this year had we run more, but there is no way to definitively prove that we would have won every game we lost by fewer than 7 points had we run more.

I could play the same game as you right now; had we run the ball more, Howard would be more likely to have gotten hurt. That injury could have happened much earlier in the season, and we could have won fewer than 3 games.
 

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Woops, didnt see that you were dismissive of the "9 wins" point earlier in the thread. Presuming that you havent changed since calling TC an idiot, feel free to disregard my previous reply.
 

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Howard looked banged up plenty times he came off or even was mentioned he was puking on the sidelines but fans here still wanted him ran into the ground in a draft pick costing and health costing measure that makes no sense.

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Mongo_76

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Woops, didnt see that you were dismissive of the "9 wins" point earlier in the thread. Presuming that you havent changed since calling TC an idiot, feel free to disregard my previous reply.

All good.

Anyone saying that giving Howard a few more carries gets us to 9 wins really needs some help.
 

Washington

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I don't buy into the thought that the play calling was done to preserve Howard and watch Barkley. They played to be competitive and win. That is what all the players who are busting their asses deserve and the coaches are coaching for their jobs too. If the run game was working and more runs were wanted by Loggains, Howard could have been subbed out more and there are more than enough chances in any game to evaluate a QB without changing a game plan to do so. If they were actually worried about Howard, he would have gotten very limited carries in the last few games.

The play calling was way better than I thought it would be especially after seeing the first few games. I think Loggains got better and does deserve another chance. He too will be graded out by the wins and losses and I'm sure he'll ride Howard's coattails for as far at it will take him especially if he's working with a rookie QB.

I actually found Gase to be more predictable with the incessant WR bubble screens.

We were never winning 9 games last year. 5 would have been a huge accomplishment for that team with those inept QBs.
 

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Dowell Loggains . . .

gladiator-thumbs-up-o.gif
 

Buddy Dale

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When evaluating the OC I take the perspective of what is in the job of an OC.
For instance, drafting, player personnel decisions, getting team ready to play, scouting, play calling, having a game plan, etc.

Let's start with the preseason:
Was the team ready to start the regular season?

1) Now, Ted Larsen played three games at center in the preseason but someone decided to switch him and place Cody Whitehair in that position.
Cody never played center, therefore he was not prepared to play center. On a side note, a player needs to know what position he is going to play before the season starts so that he can prepare his body for that position (Tom Thayer stated this during a radio show talking to Cody as the guest, and Cody agreed with him).

2) Who's idea was it to switch the offensive line a week before the season started?
3) Who's idea was it to get rid of Slauson a productive offensive lineman, when you need starters and backups?
4) Jordan Howard wasn't identified as a productive running back until the 4th or 5th game of the year. Who and how do they judge talent?
5) The team spent a lot of money on Massie and he isn't as good as what they are paying him. Who was involved in this?

6) Remember the preseason is the time to get the team ready. Was the team ready? In fact, many starters played limited time in the 4th preseason game. If we were the New England Patriots I could see players resting but not the Chicago Bears. When the regular season started Cutler was running for his life. Who is responsible? And it showed, with Cutler getting injured.

7) There were many drop balls during the season by the receiver's, it is the players responsibility and the coach's responsibility to be ready to play. Both player and coach failed in this respect. Remember the coach is there, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, they should know the capability of their players and work with them on their deficiency's. On a side note did you know that there are three wide receivers that have been on the team for three years,
Bellamy, Wilson, and Jeffery. They should have been prepared. The coach takes the fault besides the player.

8) Who is responsible for assembling the roster. The GM and OC. How would you rate the roster?

9) During the year there were at least 4 times the team wasn't prepared to play? Who is responsible? HC, GM, OC, players?

10) Dan Hampton stated that the OC is just a play caller not a game planner.

11) Why didn't the OC have plays where Jay Cutler rolls to the left or the right instead of staying straight back, where the defensive line was just teeing off on Cutler? Other teams do it?

12) There were times they wouldn't stretch the defense out and throw it downfield?

13) Team had problems scoring in the red zone, and one of the fewest points on offense in the league.

14) The Bears had the second easiest schedule out of 32 teams in the league.

15) Who's idea was it to get rid of Forte, when they had other needs on offense, like a tight end and receivers and offensive line?
They could have kept Forte instead of creating another need when they already had holes to fill.

Conclusion:
These are the items that I used in evaluating the OC. One thing I would suggest is taking a look at the rosters from Wikipedia for the years 2014, 2015 and 2016. Has the team improved? Has the team progressed? It looks like to me that this is a repeat of the beginning of the year 2015. Who is going to be the quarterback, who are the receiver's, etc. In fact, the last press conference had no indication where this team is going, except for the saying "we got to get better". I don't get the impression that the team knows what direction they are taking.
 

SuperDitkaMan

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Teams passing on Dave Toub...

A LOT of these candidates in the running for HC jobs are underwhelming to me. You want a SURE BET WINNER? Chiefs ST coach Dave Toub. For a DECADE he's FAR and AWAY managed the best ST units in football. I don't get why more ST coaches don't get HC consideration if they are good at what they do. John Harbaugh worked out OK for the Ravens(routine playoff appearances and SB victory). Dave Toub (a Harbaugh apprentice) is THE BEST at what he does. If I was a team looking for a HC...Toub would be at the top of my interview list.
 

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Trestman should have been at the top. Not too late for Rams gig, though.
 

Beast15

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Welp, sorry Tresticles...

Sean McVay - C - Rams
Rams hired Redskins OC Sean McVay as head coach.
It couldn't be a bigger 180 from Jeff Fisher, who was a well-trodden "defensive mind." A wiz kid offensive coordinator, McVay is still only 30, and will be the youngest head coach in NFL history. Mentored by the Gruden brothers — Jon reportedly spoke glowingly of Jay's assistant during the Rams' search — McVay is the son of a longtime 49ers executive. He's been a Redskins assistant since 2010, rising from assistant tight ends coach to coordinator. It's a bold hire for a team that frankly needed one. McVay's risk is high, but so is the potential reward.
Related: Redskins
 

SuperDitkaMan

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All good.

Anyone saying that giving Howard a few more carries gets us to 9 wins really needs some help.

How do you know 10-15 more carries in those games for Howard, eating up precious clock and possibly breaking one for a TD wouldn't have changed the outcome of those 6 close losses?

You don't.

Controlling the clock more, with another 10-15 runs instead of passes could have put us on the winning end of those games as much as airing it out could have. Only thing we KNOW is airing it out with our crappy QBs and WRs ultimately failed. We don't know what more runs could have done.

So I think my speculations are just as fair as yours. Neither of us know.............but something tells me that we'll find out if i'm right in 2017. Loggains WILL be calling more run plays if he cares about his job security. If Fox and Pace haven't already had that conversation with him, I'm sure they will soon. Balance is necessary...but the emphasis will be running instead of passing in 2017.

As it should have been this year. As it should be moving forward until we get a good QB and good WRs who can catch.

And alas, Roman was just brilliantly hired today by a very good coach who prefers to run more than pass - especially after his self inflicted Trestman experience.
 

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A LOT of these candidates in the running for HC jobs are underwhelming to me. You want a SURE BET WINNER? Chiefs ST coach Dave Toub. For a DECADE he's FAR and AWAY managed the best ST units in football. I don't get why more ST coaches don't get HC consideration if they are good at what they do. John Harbaugh worked out OK for the Ravens(routine playoff appearances and SB victory). Dave Toub (a Harbaugh apprentice) is THE BEST at what he does. If I was a team looking for a HC...Toub would be at the top of my interview list.

Weren't you the guy who said that the Bears would have won 9 games if they gave Howard the ball a few more times?
 

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How do you know 10-15 more carries in those games for Howard, eating up precious clock and possibly breaking one for a TD wouldn't have changed the outcome of those 6 close losses?

You don't.

Controlling the clock more, with another 10-15 runs instead of passes could have put us on the winning end of those games as much as airing it out could have. Only thing we KNOW is airing it out with our crappy QBs and WRs ultimately failed. We don't know what more runs could have done.

So I think my speculations are just as fair as yours. Neither of us know.............but something tells me that we'll find out if i'm right in 2017. Loggains WILL be calling more run plays if he cares about his job security. If Fox and Pace haven't already had that conversation with him, I'm sure they will soon. Balance is necessary...but the emphasis will be running instead of passing in 2017.

As it should have been this year. As it should be moving forward until we get a good QB and good WRs who can catch.

And alas, Roman was just brilliantly hired today by a very good coach who prefers to run more than pass - especially after his self inflicted Trestman experience.

:obama:
 

gallagher

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How do you know 10-15 more carries in those games for Howard, eating up precious clock and possibly breaking one for a TD wouldn't have changed the outcome of those 6 close losses?

You don't.

Controlling the clock more, with another 10-15 runs instead of passes could have put us on the winning end of those games as much as airing it out could have. Only thing we KNOW is airing it out with our crappy QBs and WRs ultimately failed. We don't know what more runs could have done.

So I think my speculations are just as fair as yours. Neither of us know.............but something tells me that we'll find out if i'm right in 2017. Loggains WILL be calling more run plays if he cares about his job security. If Fox and Pace haven't already had that conversation with him, I'm sure they will soon. Balance is necessary...but the emphasis will be running instead of passing in 2017.

As it should have been this year. As it should be moving forward until we get a good QB and good WRs who can catch.

And alas, Roman was just brilliantly hired today by a very good coach who prefers to run more than pass - especially after his self inflicted Trestman experience.

You previously said we would have won more games (look back in the thread, you said a 9 win season was in play had we only run more).

Now you are saying that 10-15 more carries (which is a significant leap in touches) could have given us a couple more wins. 10-15 more runs with Howard puts him at 120-180 more runs totaling up to 330 carries this season which is a LOT for 12 games as a rookie. That doesnt just put him at significant risk for injury, RBs that get ridden into the dirt one year tend to not be worth shit the next year, and that is especially true for power backs like Howard. We know that our other RBs were ineffective all year, so I know you couldnt have meant that those touches would go to them, as handing it off more to Carey and Langford wouldnt have been worth crap.

Hell, let's look at those games where we lost by less than a TD:

(1) Against Indy, we didnt have a lead until there were fewer than 5 minutes to go. We were losing until then, so grinding out the clock isnt this apparent solution that would have won us the game. Our next possession was a 2-play turnover drive (fumble by Meredith) so no opportunity to grind out the clock there, and then we had 2:30 to score a TD, which is a passing-dominated situation.

(2) Against Jax, Howard was getting 2 yards a carry. So you want to feed a guy who had been ineffective all game? That sounds like you want to risk injury for no real benefit.

(3) Against NYG, we had a lead going into halftime. After that, we were constantly in second- and third-and-long situations because of penalties (lots of holding) and ineffective running, which resulted in several three-and-outs. For Howard's running opportunities in the second half, he only had one carry for more than 2 yards (it went for three yards). If you were watching that game, you will remember that the Giants loaded up to stop Howard after halftime and force Cutler to pass, feeding Howard would have had a similar end-result.

(4) Tennessee, where we were down by two touchdowns late. Running the ball to keep the clock moving isnt a good strategy to win if you are playing from behind all game (which, surprise, we were). We only looked like we were in the game late because Barkley passed us into contention with less than a quarter to play. Only once were we in third and short and didnt feed it to Howard, and it was a short pass that went incomplete. Each other time, there was an unfortunate turnover, or Howard didnt run well enough to put us in a short-yardage situation where a run would have been the smart playcall.

(5) Against Detroit, we looked like we were in it late because LeBlanc got an INT for a TD. Sure it didnt look like we fed Howard enough, but we werent in the lead after our first score, and Howard had already exited the game once with an apparent injury. After that, we were rotating RBs more to keep Howard from sustaining a worse injury, which is (in case you werent aware) a smart thing to do. And since our other RBs couldnt do jack, we were playing from behind all game and were forced into passing situations.

(6) The last one is the GB game, and you might remember this one best. We were tied at halftime but down by three scores going into the fourth quarter. Howard had the ball 40% of the plays in the third, and Barkley threw interceptions on downs where we were in clear passing situations. And what do you do when you are down three scores in the fourth quarter? You pass the ball if you are trying to win, which we were. And we would have won that game if the FS had played the situation correctly and stayed over the top of jordy nelson.

So no, feeding Howard would have been good for stats, but it is more likely that Howard would have been injured than it is that we win any of those games. This is because you cant grind out a win when you dont have the lead to defend. So speculating that we were going to win any of these games if we fed Howard the rock means that you only looked at the final score and then stopped.
 

gallagher

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Weren't you the guy who said that the Bears would have won 9 games if they gave Howard the ball a few more times?

I actually believe he said that conditioned upon Howard getting 10-15 more carries a game.
 

Mongo_76

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How do you know 10-15 more carries in those games for Howard, eating up precious clock and possibly breaking one for a TD wouldn't have changed the outcome of those 6 close losses?
Now you're sayng we should have fed him the ball 10-15 times more per game??? Let's see...


He ran the ball 252 times. Adding another 15 per game (on 12 games) would put him at around 425-430 carries on the season. The last time a RB rushed the ball 430 times in one season?

NEVER.

In fact, in the history of the NFL, only 5 times has any RB ever rushed more than 400 times in a season.


Here's a better plan... If you want to ruin the kids career, take a bat, repeatedly whack him in the knees and shins as hard as you can.
 

Noonthirtyjoe

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When evaluating the OC I take the perspective of what is in the job of an OC.
For instance, drafting, player personnel decisions, getting team ready to play, scouting, play calling, having a game plan, etc.

Let's start with the preseason:
Was the team ready to start the regular season? (yes)

1) Now, Ted Larsen played three games at center in the preseason but someone decided to switch him and place Cody Whitehair in that position.
Cody never played center, therefore he was not prepared to play center. On a side note, a player needs to know what position he is going to play before the season starts so that he can prepare his body for that position (Tom Thayer stated this during a radio show talking to Cody as the guest, and Cody agreed with him). ((someone saw a need and pulled the trigger rather then waiting = good))

2) Who's idea was it to switch the offensive line a week before the season started? (( mine and i,m glad the listened))
3) Who's idea was it to get rid of Slauson a productive offensive lineman, when you need starters and backups? ((not the OC))
4) Jordan Howard wasn't identified as a productive running back until the 4th or 5th game of the year. Who and how do they judge talent? ((rookie 5th rd pick starting by week 5 = good))
5) The team spent a lot of money on Massie and he isn't as good as what they are paying him. Who was involved in this? ((Massie for sure, then i suspect the coaching staff))

6) Remember the preseason is the time to get the team ready. Was the team ready? In fact, many starters played limited time in the 4th preseason game. If we were the New England Patriots I could see players resting but not the Chicago Bears. When the regular season started Cutler was running for his life. Who is responsible? And it showed, with Cutler getting injured. (( playing starters in week 4 of a preseason game is stupid. Getting a last look at young guys is what the 4th game is all about))

7) There were many drop balls during the season by the receiver's, it is the players responsibility and the coach's responsibility to be ready to play. Both player and coach failed in this respect. Remember the coach is there, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, they should know the capability of their players and work with them on their deficiency's. On a side note did you know that there are three wide receivers that have been on the team for three years,
Bellamy, Wilson, and Jeffery. They should have been prepared. The coach takes the fault besides the player. (( Ah NO. It's the OC's job to get the wr in position to make a play. The WR coach teaches catching ))

8) Who is responsible for assembling the roster. The GM and OC. How would you rate the roster? ((again not the OC))

9) During the year there were at least 4 times the team wasn't prepared to play? Who is responsible? HC, GM, OC, players? (( all of the above))

10) Dan Hampton stated that the OC is just a play caller not a game planner.(( HC DC OC all plan together))

11) Why didn't the OC have plays where Jay Cutler rolls to the left or the right instead of staying straight back, where the defensive line was just teeing off on Cutler? Other teams do it? ((New OC had Cutler for a whopping couple of games and it's Cutler were talking about))

12) There were times they wouldn't stretch the defense out and throw it downfield? (( Your not supposed to stretch the def every play))

13) Team had problems scoring in the red zone, and one of the fewest points on offense in the league. (( No talent backups playing))

14) The Bears had the second easiest schedule out of 32 teams in the league. ((BS, Bears played 13 of the top 32 teams in the world))

15) Who's idea was it to get rid of Forte, when they had other needs on offense, like a tight end and receivers and offensive line?
They could have kept Forte instead of creating another need when they already had holes to fill. ((might not be the new OC who wanted his best player gone))

Conclusion:
These are the items that I used in evaluating the OC. One thing I would suggest is taking a look at the rosters from Wikipedia for the years 2014, 2015 and 2016. Has the team improved? Has the team progressed? It looks like to me that this is a repeat of the beginning of the year 2015. Who is going to be the quarterback, who are the receiver's, etc. In fact, the last press conference had no indication where this team is going, except for the saying "we got to get better". I don't get the impression that the team knows what direction they are taking.
((I see a clear plan to add young talent and build through the draft))
 

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Loggains play calling inside the ten yard line was PATHETIC. FOr that reason alone, he should have been shit-canned.
 

gallagher

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Now you're sayng we should have fed him the ball 10-15 times more per game??? Let's see...


He ran the ball 252 times. Adding another 15 per game (on 12 games) would put him at around 425-430 carries on the season. The last time a RB rushed the ball 430 times in one season?

NEVER.

In fact, in the history of the NFL, only 5 times has any RB ever rushed more than 400 times in a season.


Here's a better plan... If you want to ruin the kids career, take a bat, repeatedly whack him in the knees and shins as hard as you can.

Oh wow I totally missed on my mental math when I said 330 total carries. But I digress.

By playstyle, Howard plays a lot like Ricky Williams (with a little less speed). They are big, powerful guys that you need to hit several times before they'll go down. Remember when Ricky ran ~390 times two years in a row? First year he looked unstoppable on his way to 1850 yards on the season. The next year his average dropped by a yard and a half. The following year he looked like he had zero gas in him. That is what happens when you overuse a physical running back.

Now okay, sure he was high like the entire time, but he was high all the time before he led the league in rushing too. And imagine the shape you gotta be in to average nearly 5 yards a carry on nearly 400 carries WHILE stoned? Howard averaged less than a half-yard better with zero smoke in his lungs.
 

ClydeLee

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I saw that Lovie apparently hired Toubs son as a graduate assistant

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