Truth be Told - Bears have some Talent. And SHIT Coaching.

PeterMbangala

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Lol, you count Matthieu but not Long for us because of injury.

Tyrann Matthieu is an undisputed All Pro at his position. As much as I love Kyle Long he needs to get healthy and prove that he can get back to that level. He wasn’t on that list because he’s injured - it’s because I don’t think he’s elite.
 

PeterMbangala

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I think losing has jaded too many fans and given them a pessimistic outlook on things. Glad you guys aren't Brown of Lions fans...you'd be jumping off of the closest building...

The Bears are a lot farther along in this rebuild than most realize.

That’s certainly playing a part but this attrition of faith is entirely understandable given the last decade of futility. You could make the case that it’s actually a more rational reaction than blind faith in a GM.

Believe it or not, I actually like some of what Pace has done but, as I’ve repeatdely said, he is learning large chunks of his job in situ. In some areas he’s developing nicely (OK, one area: drafting). In others he hasn’t shown that he’s a competent GM yet (blind spots at WR, K; market evaluation; pro scouting). I do think he can get there but he has an incredible amount of work to do this offseason and he’ll have to do it all by himself as Ted Phillips and the McCaskeys have nothing positive to contribute.

What I have been trying to point out to you guys is that the roster is not as good as you think it is. By comparing it to a roster in the Cardinals that is below average but still significantly better than ours, I’m hoping to provide a bit of objectivity to this topic. You may disagree with my evaluations but they are thought through and in line with a majority of analysts across the league. This doesn’t mean they are 100% accurate of course but I don’t think they are far off.

It doesn’t mean I don’t like the look of some of our young players. I believe with really top notch coaching, they could be good to very good NFL players. I just have zero faith that...

- we will pick the right coach
- Pace will do what needs to be done in free agency
- the players will be able to shake off the systemic failure this organisation has become
- even with a marked improvement, that we will be able to catch up the other teams in our division

These are considered positions that are based on previous experience of watching the moves that the Bears have made in my lifetime (30 plus years of fandom) and the early returns on Pace’s tenure as GM.

I hope more than you can believe that Pace manages to address the four points above. If we go into OTAs with significant additions in free agency (not Snyderball but a targeted influx of playmaking talent), a draft class that looks like it will provide an immediate impact and a coaching set up that I believe can bring success, then I will be more positive about the direction we’re headed in. But after three seasons of putrid football, I need to see it.
 

PeterMbangala

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Six months to two years is a lot of developmental time depending on the player. My comments are on topic with the OP and really not the side topic of Arizona vs the Bears although again I wonder how it would have played out if 5 years ago the Cardinals and the Bears switched coaching staffs.

Bruce Charles Arians (born October 3, 1952 - died November 27, 2016) was an American football coach who was the head coach of the Chicago Bears of the National Football League (NFL). He died of a cardiac arrest in the Bears game against the Tennessee Titans after watching his receivers repeatedly drop the ball in a 27-21 defeat.
 

huggybear224

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Bruce Charles Arians (born October 3, 1952 - died November 27, 2016) was an American football coach who was the head coach of the Chicago Bears of the National Football League (NFL). He died of a cardiac arrest in the Bears game against the Tennessee Titans after watching his receivers repeatdely drop the ball in a 27-21 defeat.

LOL, now that's a classic!
 

Visionman

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That’s certainly playing a part but this attrition of faith is entirely understandable given the last decade of futility. You could make the case that it’s actually a more rational reaction than blind faith in a GM.

Believe it or not, I actually like some of what Pace has done but, as I’ve repeatdely said, he is learning large chunks of his job in situ. In some areas he’s developing nicely (OK, one area: drafting). In others he hasn’t shown that he’s a competent GM yet (blind spots at WR, K; market evaluation; pro scouting). I do think he can get there but he has an incredible amount of work to do this offseason and he’ll have to do it all by himself as Ted Phillips and the McCaskeys have nothing positive to contribute.

What I have been trying to point out to you guys is that the roster is not as good as you think it is. By comparing it to a roster in the Cardinals that is below average but still significantly better than ours, I’m hoping to provide a bit of objectivity to this topic. You may disagree with my evaluations but they are thought through and in line with a majority of analysts across the league. This doesn’t mean they are 100% accurate of course but I don’t think they are far off.

It doesn’t mean I don’t like the look of some of our young players. I believe with really top notch coaching, they could be good to very good NFL players. I just have zero faith that...

- we will pick the right coach
- Pace will do what needs to be done in free agency
- the players will be able to shake off the systemic failure this organisation has become
- even with a marked improvement, that we will be able to catch up the other teams in our division

These are considered positions that are based on previous experience of watching the moves that the Bears have made in my lifetime (30 plus years of fandom) and the early returns on Pace’s tenure as GM.

I hope more than you can believe that Pace manages to address the four points above. If we go into OTAs with significant additions in free agency (not Snyderball but a targeted influx of playmaking talent), a draft class that looks like it will provide an immediate impact and a coaching set up that I believe can bring success, then I will be more positive about the direction we’re headed in. But after three seasons of putrid football, I need to see it.

That's fine. I do think you completely misunderstand Pace's approach to FA so far, however. I expect a bigger splash in FA this offseason, IF the right player(s) are available.
 

PeterMbangala

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That's fine. I do think you completely misunderstand Pace's approach to FA so far, however. I expect a bigger splash in FA this offseason, IF the right player(s) are available.

I hope so for his sake. If he is passive and/or makes poor evaluations again for the third year out of four then it’ll be another long season and he’ll likely be fired unless he kills the draft and the coaching hire.
 

dabears70

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The pro bowl is nothing more than a popularity contest and the Bear have never been media darlings even when they are winning (so long ago). The Bears do have talent on the roster, the problem is they have no one capable of developing it. This is why Howard was third on the bench last year and Sims is playing instead of Shaheen.

Pssst psssst....they aren't smart enough to realize that....zero common sense.
 

dabears70

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Listen, we’re not getting anywhere here.

Take a look at that list of elite players on the Cardinals again. Only Hicks and maybe Goldman, Trevathan and Howard belong on an equivalent list.

You can’t compare Matthieu and Jackson, Peterson and Fuller, even Jones and Floyd or Johnson and Howard. On one side we’re talking about elite, gamechanging talent recognised across the league as All Pros or close to it. Can you really say the same about your list?

Again, we’re not arguing that there isn’t some talent on the Bears roster. Just that compared to even average rosters like the Cardinals, they are still well behind.

I know what it’s like to argue a contrary position based on an evaluation of talent that differs markedly to EVERYONE else. When the realisation comes, it’s tough to accept. I’ll be here for you next year when we go 6-10 and Pace gets fired.


I think your missing something here which is what the morons were saying was that the Bears don't have much TALENT, nobody said anything about them not having much pro bowlers or elite players...just talent and every player i mentioned plus some more have TALENT. Now it's the job of Pace to open up the checkbook and go out and get a couple of big name players to put around the TALENT we already have and have ANOTHER good draft. That is what you do when you're getting closer to the end of your rebuild.

Pay attention people.
 

dabears70

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Another myth that can easily be debunked...

Patrick Peterson is 27, Kyle Fuller is 25.
Tyrann Matthieu and Eddie Jackson will both be 25 when they play on Sunday.
Chandler Jones is 27, Leonard Floyd is 25. Cards also have Markus Golden who is 26 and probably a better talent comp for Floyd.
David Johnson is 25, Jordan Howard is 23.

Peterson and Matthieu are light years ahead of Fuller and Jackson. It’s like they’re playing a different sport.
I’d probably rate the OLBs Jones, Floyd, Golden but certainly Chandler Jones is the better player right now and it is extremely debatable whether Floyd reaches his level.
David Johnson is a far superior all round back to Jordan Howard while Jordan is better between the tackles. Take your pick but suspect that most around the league would take Johnson.

The last player on the Cardinals list, Larry Fitzgerald is old as hell but is a better WR than anyone on our roster and possibly a better blocker than half our OL. The young talent argument only works if it’s ceiling is higher than the old player you’re comparing him to.

Of the remaining players on dabears70’s list, I would call the following elite players or close to it...

Hicks
Goldman

Whitehair could be.

Do you see the difference between what you guys think are talented players and even an average roster like the Cardinals?


That is some fantastic work you did there, now tell me who was it that was comparing the Cards roster to the Bears roster cause i didn't??

I'll wait
 

dabears70

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I think I can answer this...I have noticed that anyone who calls out Teddy KFC for his bullshit turns out to be a Novak alt

Damn Gnats
 

dabears70

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There are just three or four guys still being haunted by the ghost of novak. Quite a few legit posters have been accused by Teddy KFC of being novak alts, it's KFC's go to move when he shit posts. If you get called novak by KFC that means you just won an argument.

The correct answer is nobody cares except for a few paranoid guys that novak used to destroy on the regular, and they can't get passed it. The irony of course is that months after his last CCS post, he is still kicking the shit out of these chumps.


I used to make NoSack look stupid on the regular, maybe he got himself banned on purpose cause he couldn't handle it anymore.
 

dabears70

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Tyrann Matthieu is an undisputed All Pro at his position. As much as I love Kyle Long he needs to get healthy and prove that he can get back to that level. He wasn’t on that list because he’s injured - it’s because I don’t think he’s elite.

Mathieu isn't elite either and has never played a full 16 games in a season and only played 10 games last year. This is his 5th year in the NFL and you're using our 4th round rookie as the kid you're comparing him with...SMDH.
 

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I used to make NoSack look stupid on the regular, maybe he got himself banned on purpose cause he couldn't handle it anymore.

I remember you having Hawk style rage fueled, obscenity laced meltdowns. Telling everyone to fuck off while novak laughed. I hope he still looks in and gets a kick out of you and KFC, still being tormented by a ghost.

It's just so fitting.
 

dabears70

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I hope so for his sake. If he is passive and/or makes poor evaluations again for the third year out of four then it’ll be another long season and he’ll likely be fired unless he kills the draft and the coaching hire.

He's also made good evaluations in free agency every year he's been here. I'm pretty sure that all or most of the free agents he signed that didn't work out were either signed to one year prove yourself deals or contracts that we could get out of after the first season. That's what smart GM's do when they're signing a player that isn't a sure thing. He's also signed some free agents that have worked out very well for us.
 

dabears70

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I remember you having Hawk style rage fueled, obscenity laced meltdowns. Telling everyone to fuck off while novak laughed. I hope he still looks in and gets a kick out of you and KFC, still being tormented by a ghost.

It's just so fitting.

I ruined that clown on here multiple times and i did it by myself while he had his crew of clowns coming at me at the same time. 1 on 7 and i still won...lol Kinda like how i ruin every one of your Pace hating posts...lol
 

PeterMbangala

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That is some fantastic work you did there, now tell me who was it that was comparing the Cards roster to the Bears roster cause i didn't??

I'll wait

Your buddy Teddy explicitly said that he believes the Cards roster is worse than ours. I was just showing him that it isn’t. He brought up the Cards, I just thought it would be too mean to do this exercise with the Giants or the Redskins, which he also suggested.
 

PeterMbangala

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Mathieu isn't elite either and has never played a full 16 games in a season and only played 10 games last year. This is his 5th year in the NFL and you're using our 4th round rookie as the kid you're comparing him with...SMDH.

Again, I’m not the one who said the Cards roster was worse than ours.

The whole thrust of Teddy’s argument is that he believes we are further ahead than many believe. You also believe that right?

I asked him to name six rosters that he believes are currently in a worse state than ours because I couldn’t think of any outside the Browns and 49ers. It is a useful exercise because I believe after 3 years of rebuilding, even an expansion team should be able to have a viable roster in place.

What we’ve repeatdely seen in this thread is your group picking up on the smallest issue that we’ve raised (the comment in passing about the Giants being more attractive, how pro bowlers are selected etc.) rather than the number one issue the Bears face after coaching.

Is this roster any good compared to other rosters in the league?

If you can’t name six teams worse off then I would suggest it’s self-evident that the answer is no. Because you don’t rate your roster in isolation, it needs to be evaluated in the context of the other teams.

I am trying here by the way. I’m not resorting to ad hominems or being a dick about it. I am simply calling into question Teddy’s belief that we have a good roster with high-ceiling young talent on it.
 

PeterMbangala

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Browns, 49ers, Giants, Redskins, Colts, Cardinals.

" but some of those teams have much better records than us!" You say.

And I reply with "that's because they have much better coaching."

I truly wonder how many on this board are keeping up with the supposed name players and other teams. Luck looks anything but the number one overall pick he was supposed to be.

Talent on the Redskins and Cardinals is on a downturn.

What is truly hilarious is that for every playmaker you think you can name on the other team, I can bet you that there's someone who is a fan of that team making the same argument you are, and using guys like Jordan Howard and Tarik Cohen and Akeem Hicks to prove his point that the Bears have more Talent than their hometeam.

You asked, I answered. Now you have to disagree with me because otherwise your argument is shot. I know how the song and dance goes. It's boring and cliche. Try another one.

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Here you go dabears70.

Have at it. I think Browns and 49ers are worse, Colts have less depth by a far superior QB so it’s probably about equal and I wait to be persuaded on any other serious comparisons because his other three were laughable.

It was his parting shot in this thread that he started.
 

dabears70

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Your buddy Teddy explicitly said that he believes the Cards roster is worse than ours. I was just showing him that it isn’t. He brought up the Cards, I just thought it would be too mean to do this exercise with the Giants or the Redskins, which he also suggested.

So why did you use my post to reply to then??
 

PeterMbangala

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So why did you use my post to reply to then??

That’s your main concern? Internet message board protocol?

I thought you would’ve been aware of the discussion given that you thanked the post.

Who do you think has a worse roster than us? “I’ll wait” :smug2:
 

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