Can we all get behind Jordan Howard now?

remydat

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Sep 15, 2012
Posts:
57,795
Liked Posts:
37,725
As stated previously, its a lot harder to give the defense the same exact play look running a zone scheme. I assume thats why Nagy wanted to try Gap blocking considering it gave more options in the RPO and misdirection.

As noted in stats Chiefs still a heavy zone scheme despite that fact. So you know what, if zone is going to improve run game and is already part of scheme then just do it.
 

msadows

Well-known member
Joined:
Aug 23, 2012
Posts:
22,104
Liked Posts:
16,808
As noted in stats Chiefs still a heavy zone scheme despite that fact. So you know what, if zone is going to improve run game and is already part of scheme then just do it.

Dude you just said the chiefs ran zone 60% of the time. Howard ran zone 58.6% of the time in the first half of the season when Nagy actually wanted to run that type of offense.

Same shit. And that was with Alex Smith.

You essentially linked me shit that countered your argument.

We ran zone just as much as the chiefs did last year. Sorry for not playing foxball.
 

remydat

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Sep 15, 2012
Posts:
57,795
Liked Posts:
37,725
Dude you just said the chiefs ran zone 60% of the time. Howard ran zone 58.6% of the time in the first half of the season when Nagy actually wanted to run that type of offense.

Same shit. And that was with Alex Smith.

You essentially linked me shit that countered your argument.

We ran zone just as much as the chiefs did last year. Sorry for not playing foxball.

So that means 40% of his runs were gap which at 2.9 YPC depressed his numbers. When Nagy was closer to the 81% Bears had last year then Howard looked better at end of season.

Point being this is not changing the offensive scheme as Nagy's scheme is already zone blocking heavy. This would be running a higher proportion of plays in your scheme that you know your player is better at. The plays are already a part of the scheme. Nagy just did not call them enough at start of season.

So you have been completely wrong claiming it would require some overhaul of offensive scheme. You confusing scheme with offensive gameplan. The scheme already zone blocking heavy. The gameplan should have called those plays a higher percentage of the time was the issue.
 

Adipost

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Sep 28, 2014
Posts:
8,616
Liked Posts:
10,212
Location:
Chicago, IL
I read an interesting article which argued that Jordan Howard was struggling because he was no longer seeing any 8 man boxes. In prior years, teams crashed in on howard Immediately, which compressed 8 defenders all into the same level of the field (the line of scrimmage). All Howard had to do was make 1 quick cut and there were no defenders in the 2nd level for Howard to maneuver around.

This year, with the offense spread out, Howard saw the least amount of 8 man boxes in the NFL for a starting RB. Now Howard has to maneuver around defenders at every level, 1 cut is not going to spring him loose.
 

msadows

Well-known member
Joined:
Aug 23, 2012
Posts:
22,104
Liked Posts:
16,808
So that means 40% of his runs were gap which at 2.9 YPC depressed his numbers. When Nagy was closer to the 81% Bears had last year then Howard looked better at end of season.

Point being this is not changing the offensive scheme as Nagy's scheme is already zone blocking heavy. This would be running a higher proportion of plays in your scheme that you know your player is better at. The plays are already a part of the scheme. Nagy just did not call them enough at start of season.

Fuck bro, he ran the same amount of zone schemes week 1-8 as the chiefs did in 2016. You said it yourself. Why the fuck should he change his offense for jordan howard.

The offense changed completely the last 4 games of the year when we switched to a heavy zone scheme. We did it because we were making the playoffs and had to take the burden off trubisky, not because of Jordan Howard. Nagy knew the bears best option to win a superbowl was to give Howard the best chance to succeed, but that also took all the aggressiveness and misdirection away from his playcalling.

Do you really think the last 4 games was a direct result of Nagy "Wanting" to use Howard? Or a direct result of Nagy reeling in trubisky.
 

remydat

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Sep 15, 2012
Posts:
57,795
Liked Posts:
37,725
I read an interesting article which argued that Jordan Howard was struggling because he was no longer seeing any 8 man boxes. In prior years, teams crashed in on howard Immediately, which compressed 8 defenders all into the same level of the field (the line of scrimmage). All Howard had to do was make 1 quick cut and there were no defenders in the 2nd level for Howard to maneuver around.

This year, with the offense spread out, Howard saw the least amount of 8 man boxes in the NFL for a starting RB. Now Howard has to maneuver around defenders at every level, 1 cut is not going to spring him loose.

43% last year vs 14% this year in terms of 8 men in box.
 

Dragon Slayer

Formerly Hawkeye
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '21
Joined:
Mar 1, 2015
Posts:
33,018
Liked Posts:
39,589
Ehh, I'm all for a RBBC. Sign Spencer Ware or draft someone, give Howard some first down looks, sprinkle in Ware and Cohen and 2nd and 3rd downs. Let JHOW get the hard short yardage runs. Now question is how happy will howard be getting 150 carries a year?

I could be on board with this. What I can't get on board with is getting rid of Howard with no plan in place. That's a recipe for disaster and makes me think of two years ago when our starting WRs were McBride and Gentry. I think most reasonable people can agree Howard isn't the long term guy for Nagy, but he's still a good back. Bears shouldn't just trade away talent because he isn't a scheme fit. He's can still be productive in Nagy's system.
 

remydat

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Sep 15, 2012
Posts:
57,795
Liked Posts:
37,725
Fuck bro, he ran the same amount of zone schemes week 1-8 as the chiefs did in 2016. You said it yourself. Why the fuck should he change his offense for jordan howard.

The offense changed completely the last 4 games of the year when we switched to a heavy zone scheme. We did it because we were making the playoffs and had to take the burden off trubisky, not because of Jordan Howard. Nagy knew the bears best option to win a superbowl was to give Howard the best chance to succeed, but that also took all the aggressiveness and misdirection away from his playcalling.

Do you really think the last 4 games was a direct result of Nagy "Wanting" to use Howard? Or a direct result of Nagy reeling in trubisky.

That again is not changing the offense as the offense always had those plays.

60% is already a heavy zone scheme. We increased it to 75% but both are heavy so again always part of offense.

I think we switched because Nagy realized his mistake. You keep acting like Gap is the preferred but it isn't. It was always the smaller percentage of run plays and you hyping it up as necessary with no evidence to prove it.
 

bamainatlanta

You wake him up, you keep him up
Staff member
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '22
Joined:
Aug 10, 2013
Posts:
33,612
Liked Posts:
33,540
Location:
Cumming
Has Mizzel EVER in the his career had a big play? Howard has at least had some 20 yarders lol

Problem is Howard's 20 yders would be 40+ yarders with RB's with more speed.
 

Xuder O'Clam

CCS Donator
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Apr 22, 2015
Posts:
14,428
Liked Posts:
14,227
Problem is Howard's yders would be 40+ yarders with RB's with more speed.

Hunt has 4 40+ yard runs in 27 games started, 19 for 20+

Howard has 6 in 44 games started, 20 for 20+

Both have a long of 69.

Howard is a good runner. Had an off year last year. Hunt is more dynamic because of his receiving skills.
 

WindyCity

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
Posts:
30,816
Liked Posts:
35,721
Problem is Howard's 20 yders would be 40+ yarders with RB's with more speed.

I think this is the issue.

As Xuder wrote, Hunt had similar explosive run numbers in 17 less games.

I think Nagy wants the run game to have the chance to be explosive, because he would like to run less. It is like baseball, if you are going to get 4 hits in a game it is better if 1 is a home run
 

WindyCity

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
Posts:
30,816
Liked Posts:
35,721
My guess is Heistand had a big impact on the style of run game the Bears had, all OL coaches do.

Notre Dame runs a ton of power and gap stuff.
 

Spunky Porkstacker

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Jun 6, 2010
Posts:
15,741
Liked Posts:
7,452
Location:
NW Burbs
The Bears are not going to give someone 25 carries and have them grind out 100 yards. They are going to throw the ball 60+% of the time.

They need/want someone who can create more explosive plays because they are not going to run as many plays.

That is why Mizzell gets carries, because their is a better chance that he goes 40 than Howard. (Both are tiny percentages)

Mizzell does not have anything on Howard, Mizzell is a wasted roster space.
 

Rory Sparrow

Well-known member
Joined:
Aug 14, 2010
Posts:
4,850
Liked Posts:
3,735
The Bears are not going to give someone 25 carries and have them grind out 100 yards. They are going to throw the ball 60+% of the time.

Howard has had 25 carries in a game 3 times in his career. He was 2nd in the NFL in rushing yards his rookie year with 5.2 yards per carry....not exactly Matt Suhey grinding out 3 yard gains. I don't think the issue is really the 'amount' of usage with Howard, as he still has games where he gets a normal workload and he's proven in the past that he can be efficient.

I thought it was interesting that when Trubisky came back from injury, Nagy seemingly dumbed down the offense and Howard had his best yards per carry games against two playoff-caliber defenses in the Rams (19-101-5.3) and Vikes (21-109-5.2).
 

Rory Sparrow

Well-known member
Joined:
Aug 14, 2010
Posts:
4,850
Liked Posts:
3,735
I read an interesting article which argued that Jordan Howard was struggling because he was no longer seeing any 8 man boxes. In prior years, teams crashed in on howard Immediately, which compressed 8 defenders all into the same level of the field (the line of scrimmage). All Howard had to do was make 1 quick cut and there were no defenders in the 2nd level for Howard to maneuver around.

This year, with the offense spread out, Howard saw the least amount of 8 man boxes in the NFL for a starting RB. Now Howard has to maneuver around defenders at every level, 1 cut is not going to spring him loose.

Interesting. Probably the most relevant posting in this thread.
 

pseudonym

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Jan 11, 2014
Posts:
6,598
Liked Posts:
4,011
Location:
Chicago
He is not a special player

He is not even the best RB on the team

He is gone in 2020

I am not sure we need to really defend him. It looks like we are going to grind him for one more year and let him leave.

I usually agree, Windy, but he did have 1,300+ yards rushing his rookie year, and 1,100 his second. Almost 1,000 last year. He's not a good scheme fit, I'll give you that. I don't think he'll be here beyond 2020. But he's not a BAD rb.
 

bamainatlanta

You wake him up, you keep him up
Staff member
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '22
Joined:
Aug 10, 2013
Posts:
33,612
Liked Posts:
33,540
Location:
Cumming
I usually agree, Windy, but he did have 1,300+ yards rushing his rookie year, and 1,100 his second. Almost 1,000 last year. He's not a good scheme fit, I'll give you that. I don't think he'll be here beyond 2020. But he's not a BAD rb.

No one said he is bad, it's just that Pace can find similar production from a FA or draft pick
 

remydat

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Sep 15, 2012
Posts:
57,795
Liked Posts:
37,725
No one said he is bad, it's just that Pace can find similar production from a FA or draft pick

Can he? Was Ronald Jones great last year? A bit odd to just assume a draft or FA just matches his production as if it is that easy.

Unless by production you mean this past year where Nagy misused him as opposed to his production the first 2 years.
 

Rory Sparrow

Well-known member
Joined:
Aug 14, 2010
Posts:
4,850
Liked Posts:
3,735
I'm guessing Jon Gruden thought he could replace Amari Cooper's 48 receptions 680 receiving yards from 2017 with a FA or draft pick. Seth Roberts, tho.
 

Top