Kevin Toliver & Amukamara

[Jack Lantern]

but then you can say that about many of the defenders because the group as a whole regressed.

Has the defense ever played with a lead this year? O had zero TD's in the 1st half 11 of 16 games, lol. It's advantageous for the defense to make the opponent become one dimensional but when you are rarely playing with the lead and the offense (lead the league in punts) goes 3 and out every other drive, well you know.

 

[Pegger]

For me it's not a matter of money savings. It's the fact that he's simply not good enough to be a starter next year. Toliver or literally anyone else they bring in will be an upgrade, the money savings to invest elsewhere is just icing on the cake.

Corner is a tough position to consistently be good to great. They have to truth their instincts and look to make plays are the same time their DL is creating pressure. This isn't as simple as 'we are blitzing, so I'll jump routes'. There's a component to game feel that goes beyond most analytics.

Anyway, corners value are rarely consistent. As an example let's talk about Kyle Fuller. His rookie year was great, but do you remember his 2nd, 3rd and 4th season? 2nd fell way short of his rookie year, 3rd he was injured and 4th it seemed like the opposing team was targeting him. I actually remember some saying they felt the team was better off giving more reps to Prince, Marcus Cooper and Callahan as they factored into the future roster whereas Fuller probably isn't worth an extension. Add in that there were a bunch of rumors that Fuller was on the block and the Bears weren't asking for much and that the Bears didn't outright extend him (transition tag) it wasn't looking good.

Obviously today we realize that was just noise. Fuller is a damn good corner and ever since the Bears matched the Packers offer he's earned his money (for a second just imagine if they didn't match... That would have stung).

I fully appreciate that the Prince situation is different. No denying that he's older and might have lost a step. The flip side is in 2018, when the Bears D was dominant, he played the best ball on his life.

Here's the info we don't know - What has changed in terns of what the defense is asking and how other parts are executing? The Bears know what they asked Prince to do and how he's carried out those instructions. He could easily have been executing what was being asked, but ultimately the opposition playcall was just better.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

It is extremely rare for a TE to play at a high level for the first few years especially when you are talking a second rounder in a historically weak TE draft, so that you would be going into next season with the same trash at TE. Prince was decent when the Bears front 7 was healthy and getting pressure, but he was exposed when not blessed with that same strong front. All DB's look better than they are when the QB is harried, only really good ones continue to play well sans that pressure. Prince did not.
For that reason I would rather grab a young consistent TE and maybe down grade a bit at CB and hope the healthy front 7 makes the new guy look better than he is next season.

I haven't heard that this TE draft is weak.... just not first round heavy. But I honestly haven't read much on it. As for Hooper.... if he's that good Atlanta will sign him or he'll probably get a deal too big for us.

Regardless.... Bears have plenty of their own guys to re-sign as well. I'd be shocked if they're signing expensive players this offseason.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

Doesn't matter whether Tolliver is ready or not. Prince is a cap casualty alongside the fact that he is trash

He's not trash. Good lord you guys get down on guys way to fast sometimes.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

For me it's not a matter of money savings. It's the fact that he's simply not good enough to be a starter next year. Toliver or literally anyone else they bring in will be an upgrade, the money savings to invest elsewhere is just icing on the cake.

C'mon Broc..... you're smarter than that.

 

[Jack Lantern]

- What has changed in terns of what the defense is asking and how other parts are executing?

Bears Offense...
-Zero TD's in first half for 11 of 16 games
-Lead the NFL in punts

**equals**

-Defense regression

 

[HearshotKDS]

I went all the way to the $5M/year corners, but most of those guys are no better/worse than Prince.

Agreed, team should look to get one of the corners who is about as good as Prince, but for less than half the cost.

 

[remydat]

One of our main problems is we have given way too much money to role players. Guys like Leno, Massie, Prince, Floyd. Making a lot of money but they dont actually improve the team significantly.

Yes we could end up worse but if we do it is not because we made the wrong decision. It is because we have the wrong GM and coach evaluating talent.

The simple question we should ask ourselves is whether they are worth it or not and quite frankly if they all became FAs I seriously doubt any of them would get close to what they are making now.

Can't do anything with Leno or Massie due to the cap but if they keep Prince or Floyd it means they arent confident in their own ability as coach or GM because I assure you any management team worth their salt can find a replacement for Prince and Floyd's meager production for much less than their current price tags.

Now if you truly believe Prince is worth the money then fine. But if you are keeping Prince not because he is worth it but because you are too scared of failing in finding a replacement then that is a cowardly and ultimately failing strategy. Nothing in life comes without risk. Man the fuck up and do your job. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[onebud34]

Not sure why they'd hang onto a regressing Amukamara. He's entering his 10th season...that's a lot of miles on the knees and hammy.

You're going to have to replace him after the 2020 season anyways. You might as well roll the dice for a cheaper option whether it be Tolliver or FA.

 

[onebud34]

How many teams spend 9 million on a role player in return for nothing close to Pro Bowl production? It is a poor strategy for roster building. One of our main problems is we have given way too much money to role players. Guys like Leno, Massie, Prince, Floyd. Making a lot of money but they dont actually improve the team significantly.

Yep...there's a difference in rewarding your own and overpaying for lesser talent.

 

[dennehy]

I’d rather do Prince/Toliver at CB and draft a TE with one of our second round picks.

Really $8mil get you an elite guard next year, a $44mil/4year deal for an elite guard will have a cap charge of about $8mil most likely for 2020. To me that's a no brainer. Second team all pro Joe Thuney or Prince. Easy call.

 

[remydat]

Yep...there's a difference in rewarding your own and overpaying for lesser talent.

Yeah the telling thing is after 3 pages I have yet to see a single argument from anyone saying he is actually worth 9 million. It is more people afraid we may fuck up getting a replacement which is not an argument for Prince but an argument for replacing the GM and/or HC.

Bears fans are so used to losing we have a loser's mentality when it comes to team building. Fans of a good team see Prince and Floyd's salary and see a great opportunity to use that money to get better. Fans of shitty teams see their salaries and are fearful that their team cant use that 22 million effectively to get better so just want to keep status quo.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

Really $8mil get you an elite guard next year, a $44mil/4year deal for an elite guard will have a cap charge of about $8mil most likely for 2020. To me that's a no brainer. Second team all pro Joe Thuney or Prince. Easy call.

Good lord the last thing this team needs to do is let Pace spend more money on the oline. How has that worked so far? Quality guards are like RB's.... should be easy to find. If Pace is a good GM he should be able to find a good RG in the mid rounds this year.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

Yeah the telling thing is after 3 pages I have yet to see a single argument from anyone saying he is actually worth 9 million. It is more people afraid we may fuck up getting a replacement which is not an argument for Prince but an argument for replacing the GM and/or HC.

Bears fans are so used to losing we have a loser's mentality when it comes to team building. Fans of a good team see Prince and Floyd's salary and see a great opportunity to use that money to get better. Fans of shitty teams see their salary's and are fearful that their team's cant use that 22 million effectively to get better so just want to keep status quo.

Free agency rarely pays off but every year like a moth to a flame..... "we can sign this guy, and this guy and ooh.... look at this pretty little bauble."

As to your first comment. Price may be slightly overpaid.... but not by more than a couple mil IMO.

 

[dennehy]

Good lord the last thing this team needs to do is let Pace spend more money on the oline. How has that worked so far? Quality guards are like RB's.... should be easy to find. If Pace is a good GM he should be able to find a good RG in the mid rounds this year.

LOL, ok.

 

[remydat]

Free agency rarely pays off but every year like a moth to a flame..... "we can sign this guy, and this guy and ooh.... look at this pretty little bauble."

As to your first comment. Price may be slightly overpaid.... but not by more than a couple mil IMO.

Didnt we sign Prince in FA? As well as Hicks? Sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesnt.

As for Prince, you have equivalent guys making 3-5 milliom so he is overpaid by quite a bit IMO.

Do you think he is a game changer and if not why spend 9 million a year on a role player? Do you see a lot of teams that make the playoffs spending this kind of money on role players?

 

[dabears70]

Kendall Fuller on a 1 year deal or 2.

This would be cool to be able to put the Fuller brothers together in our secondary. Someone said this a few weeks ago on here which i think was windy but someone did.

 

[Pegger]

Prince is a role player. If you can't replace role players with productive players for cheaper than 9 million then you shouldnt be running a team.

How many teams spend 9 million on a role player in return for nothing close to Pro Bowl production? It is a poor strategy for roster building. One of our main problems is we have given way too much money to role players. Guys like Leno, Massie, Prince, Floyd. Making a lot of money but they dont actually improve the team significantly.

Yes we could end up worse but if we do it is not because we made the wrong decision, it is because we have the wrong GM and coach evaluating talent.

The simple question we should ask ourselves is whether they are worth it or not and quite frankly if they all became FAs I seriously doubt ay of them would get close to what they are making now.

Can't do anything with Leno or Massie due to cap but if they keep Prince or Floyd it means they arent confident in their own ability as coach or GM because I assure any management team worth their salt can find a replacement for Prince and Floyd's meager production for much less than their current price tags.

I'm going to focus on the bolded line.

Almost all teams have a few players that weren't worth their money. Some are more than $9M, some are just less. Check https://overthecap.com/ or for the 2019 check out https://www.spotrac.com/. I'd bet over 1/2 the league have some cap stinkers.

For my Eagles, who under Howie Roseman's guidance, is regareded as a cap smart team, I have no idea why Nelson Agholor occupied $9.3M of cap space just to drop footballs. Yikes! I can almost guarantee Alshon Jeffery won't be worth $15.7M in cap space he'll be occupying next season.

Let's look at the best run dynasty in the Patriots. I realize Brady has done so much and moving from him is hard, but was he worth $21.5M in cap space? His QB rating was worse than the league average. Looking into 2020 do you really think Mohamed Sanu will be worth $6.5M in cap space? Maybe, but he's been a #2 at best for every team he's played on.

Looking at some playoff teams:

Ravens - $15M is a lot to pay for 49 tackles, 2 sacks and 2 ints... (Earl Thomas)
Bills - Paying a center over $11M per year and he gets hurt (Mitch Morse)
Packers - Jimmy Graham's cap his it $11.67M.
Texans - Was Will Fuller worth $10.16M? No.
Chiefs - Take your pick between Frank Clark's $22.7M or Sammy Watkins $21M
Vikings - Could go with Kirk, but Xavier Rhodes has been horrible and his $12.9M cap number makes it that much worse.
49ers - You can look at Dee Ford, Kwon Alexander or Solomon Thomas.
Seahawks - Team has went through a post-boom salary dump, but Duane Brown getting more than $12M is a bit much even before the injury. You could also go with L.J. Collier who was their $3M first rounder who was a healthy scratch this past week.
Titans - Malcolm Butler at $13.81M or Adam Humphries at $9.875M. Take your pick.

Anyway, every team in every sport has player contracts that fall short of expectations. It's almost impossible for a team to win on every single deal. The NFL is unique in that it doesn't fully guarantee contracts (except Cousins), but it's not realistic to expect every under-performer to be cut.

 

[onebud34]

Releasing Amukamara is a slam dunk if you're wanting to improve the team. Especially with the 2020 option.

 

[remydat]

I'm going to focus on the bolded line.

Almost all teams have a few players that weren't worth their money. Some are more than $9M, some are just less. Check https://overthecap.com/ or for the 2019 check out https://www.spotrac.com/. I'd bet over 1/2 the league have some cap stinkers.

For my Eagles, who under Howie Roseman's guidance, is regareded as a cap smart team, I have no idea why Nelson Agholor occupied $9.3M of cap space just to drop footballs. Yikes! I can almost guarantee Alshon Jeffery won't be worth $15.7M in cap space he'll be occupying next season.

Let's look at the best run dynasty in the Patriots. I realize Brady has done so much and moving from him is hard, but was he worth $21.5M in cap space? His QB rating was worse than the league average. Looking into 2020 do you really think Mohamed Sanu will be worth $6.5M in cap space? Maybe, but he's been a #2 at best for every team he's played on.

Looking at some playoff teams:

Ravens - $15M is a lot to pay for 49 tackles, 2 sacks and 2 ints... (Earl Thomas)
Bills - Paying a center over $11M per year and he gets hurt (Mitch Morse)
Packers - Jimmy Graham's cap his it $11.67M.
Texans - Was Will Fuller worth $10.16M? No.
Chiefs - Take your pick between Frank Clark's $22.7M or Sammy Watkins $21M
Vikings - Could go with Kirk, but Xavier Rhodes has been horrible and his $12.9M cap number makes it that much worse.
49ers - You can look at Dee Ford, Kwon Alexander or Solomon Thomas.
Seahawks - Team has went through a post-boom salary dump, but Duane Brown getting more than $12M is a bit much even before the injury. You could also go with L.J. Collier who was their $3M first rounder who was a healthy scratch this past week.
Titans - Malcolm Butler at $13.81M or Adam Humphries at $9.875M. Take your pick.

Anyway, every team in every sport has player contracts that fall short of expectations. It's almost impossible for a team to win on every single deal. The NFL is unique in that it doesn't fully guarantee contracts (except Cousins), but it's not realistic to expect every under-performer to be cut.

Ok lets not confuse things. When the Eagles won, you just signed a lot of those guys expecting more production. And you couldnt cut them right away because of the cap hits.

Now once cutting them is cap friendly the Eagles would be stupid to keep them and part of the reason why you guys sucked this year is because you have players making more money than they should.

So tell you what, lets take a look at when the cap makes it smart for these underperformers to be cut and see how many of them survive?

Also to be clear the Prince signing was good for us. But now it is time to move on as he has started his decline and it is cap friendly for us to do so.