Harold Baines Did not deserve to go into the HOF

dennehy

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Yes, it would be like having candidates for CCS Hall of Fame class of 2019, and one of the candidates is much weaker than the others but is described as being "the best poster in the CCS White Sox Forum".
CCS Hall of Fame: An Honor only bestowed on the very most worthy.
 

brett05

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Whoever was the first DH to retire should be in by your logic, doesn't matter who because he was the best when he retired and the best when he became eligible. Same with every other position. And probably a few more who retired shortly after the first one unless by some weird chance the first was a really good player.

Do you really not understand how dumb that is?

Also Edgar Martinez was far and away better than Baines when he Baines retired.
Edgar was not at DH. That's the discussion.
 

dennehy

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Edgar was not at DH. That's the discussion.
So better players who play the field should not get in ahead of worse DHs simply because they were DHs (best at the time they retire). This is pretty much the argument you are making.
 

FirstTimer

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Whoever was the first DH to retire should be in by your logic, doesn't matter who because he was the best when he retired and the best when he became eligible. Same with every other position. And probably a few more who retired shortly after the first one unless by some weird chance the first was a really good player.

Do you really not understand how dumb that is?

Also Edgar Martinez was far and away better than Baines when he Baines retired.
To this point:

At the times Baines retired after the 2001 season:
Edgar Martinez: 7115 Plate Appearances, .319 Avg, .426 OBP, .956 OPS, 153 OPS+, 6x All Star, 4x Silver Slugger, 2 Batting Titles, Lead the AL in OBP 3x, Lead the League in doubles 2x, Lead the league in OPS 1x.

Baines can't touch those numbers. Baines made 6x ASG and won a single Silver Slugger..he lead the league in OBP once. That's it. This isn't even a discussion.

So Baines was at least #2, and this doesn't even factor in the following:
By the time Baines retired in 2001 you could argue a guy like Frank Thomas was already a better "all time DH".

Don Baylor was arguably better. (He won 3 Silver SLuggers at the position and an MVP)
Paul Molitor won 4 Silver Sluggers at the position and was better

What's even more damning is ALL of the above guys were contemporaries of Baines and were better than him. These guys consistently beat Baines out for Silver Slugger awards, MVP votes, and ASG appearances.

Martinez was EASILY better than Baines when Baines retired.
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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At the times Baines retired after the 2001 season:
Edgar Martinez: 7115 Plate Appearances, .319 Avg, .426 OBP, .956 OPS, 153 OPS+, 6x All Star, 4x Silver Slugger, 2 Batting Titles, Lead the AL in OBP 3x, Lead the League in doubles 2x, Lead the league in OPS 1x.

Baines can't touch those numbers. Baines made 6x ASG and won a single Silver Slugger..he lead the league in OBP once. That's it. This isn't even a discussion.

So Baines was at least #2, and this doesn't even factor in the following:
By the time Baines retired in 2001 you could argue a guy like Frank Thomas was already a better "all time DH".

Don Baylor was arguably better. (He won 3 Silver SLuggers at the position and an MVP)
Paul Molitor won 4 Silver Sluggers at the position and was better

What's even more damning is ALL of the above guys were contemporaries of Baines and were better than him. These guys consistently beat Baines out for Silver Slugger awards, MVP votes, and ASG appearances.

Martinez was EASILY better than Baines when Baines retired.
 

brett05

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At the times Baines retired after the 2001 season:
Edgar Martinez: 7115 Plate Appearances, .319 Avg, .426 OBP, .956 OPS, 153 OPS+, 6x All Star, 4x Silver Slugger, 2 Batting Titles, Lead the AL in OBP 3x, Lead the League in doubles 2x, Lead the league in OPS 1x.

Baines can't touch those numbers. Baines made 6x ASG and won a single Silver Slugger..he lead the league in OBP once. That's it. This isn't even a discussion.

So Baines was at least #2, and this doesn't even factor in the following:
By the time Baines retired in 2001 you could argue a guy like Frank Thomas was already a better "all time DH".

Don Baylor was arguably better. (He won 3 Silver SLuggers at the position and an MVP)
Paul Molitor won 4 Silver Sluggers at the position and was better

What's even more damning is ALL of the above guys were contemporaries of Baines and were better than him. These guys consistently beat Baines out for Silver Slugger awards, MVP votes, and ASG appearances.

Martinez was EASILY better than Baines when Baines retired.
Frank had just begun DHing as had Edgar. Baines was better at DH than both at his retirement.
 

FirstTimer

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Edgar was not at DH. That's the discussion.
Edgar Martinez became a full time DH in 1995. He retired three years after Baines in 2004. From 1995-2001 Edgar did the following:
5X All Star
3x Silver Slugger
Lead League in OBP 3x
1x Batting Title
1x Lead League in RBI's
1x Lead league in OPS
1x Led League in Runs
1x Lead League in Doubles
1x Lead League in OPS+
Finished 3rd in the MVP voting in 1995, 6th in 2000.
Slashed: .329/.446/.574 (OPS of 1.020' OPS+ 164)

Edgar Martinez was easily better and more accomplished than Baines when Baines retired.

There is no discussion.

After Baines retired Martinez put up three more seasons of regression numbers. He was meh. He retired then they immediately named the DH award after him. Stop making it seem like Martinez played for another 5 seasons at an elite level to "pass" Baines after Baines retired. He didn't.

Martinez last three years after Baines retired:
.278/.383/.449 (OPS .832, OPS+ 122) 1 ASG, 1 Silver Slugger.

These were not good years for Edgar given his past. Ironically, Edgar's regression seasons almost perfectly match the "average" Baines season. (.289/.356/.465 OPS of .820 OPS+ of 121)

So even Edgar's "down seasons" are pretty much better or perfectly on par with Baines average season.

You're, as usual, intellectually bankrupt.
 

FirstTimer

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Frank had just begun DHing as had Edgar. Baines was better at DH than both at his retirement.
This is unequivocally not true. Martinez began DH'ing in 1995.

Edgar Martinez became a full time DH in 1995. He retired three years after Baines in 2004. From 1995-2001 Edgar did the following:
5X All Star
3x Silver Slugger
Lead League in OBP 3x
1x Batting Title
1x Lead League in RBI's
1x Lead league in OPS
1x Led League in Runs
1x Lead League in Doubles
1x Lead League in OPS+
Finished 3rd in the MVP voting in 1995, 6th in 2000.
Slashed: .329/.446/.574 (OPS of 1.020' OPS+ 164)

Edgar Martinez was easily better and more accomplished than Baines when Baines retired.

There is no discussion.

After Baines retired Martinez put up three more seasons of regression numbers. He was meh. He retired then they immediately named the DH award after him. Stop making it seem like Martinez played for another 5 seasons at an elite level to "pass" Baines after Baines retired. He didn't.

Martinez last three years after Baines retired:
.278/.383/.449 (OPS .832, OPS+ 122) 1 ASG, 1 Silver Slugger.

These were not good years for Edgar given his past. Ironically, Edgar's regression seasons almost perfectly match the "average" Baines season. (.289/.356/.465 OPS of .820 OPS+ of 121)

So even Edgar's "down seasons" are pretty much better or perfectly on par with Baines average season.

You're, as usual, intellectually bankrupt.
 

FirstTimer

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Edgar Martinez became a full time DH in 1995. He retired three years after Baines in 2004. From 1995-2001 Edgar did the following:
5X All Star
3x Silver Slugger
Lead League in OBP 3x
1x Batting Title
1x Lead League in RBI's
1x Lead league in OPS
1x Led League in Runs
1x Lead League in Doubles
1x Lead League in OPS+
Finished 3rd in the MVP voting in 1995, 6th in 2000.
Slashed: .329/.446/.574 (OPS of 1.020' OPS+ 164)

Edgar Martinez was easily better and more accomplished than Baines when Baines retired.

There is no discussion.

After Baines retired Martinez put up three more seasons of regression numbers. He was meh. He retired then they immediately named the DH award after him. Stop making it seem like Martinez played for another 5 seasons at an elite level to "pass" Baines after Baines retired. He didn't.

Martinez last three years after Baines retired:
.278/.383/.449 (OPS .832, OPS+ 122) 1 ASG, 1 Silver Slugger.

These were not good years for Edgar given his past. Ironically, Edgar's regression seasons almost perfectly match the "average" Baines season. (.289/.356/.465 OPS of .820 OPS+ of 121)

So even Edgar's "down seasons" are pretty much better or perfectly on par with Baines average season.

You're, as usual, intellectually bankrupt.
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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Let me ask this: what year are you suggesting that Edgar began DHing?
FirstTimer is suggesting that Martinez began DHing in 1995, but with the exception of 88 and 89 he DH'ed every year.

EDIT: I'm seeing now that FirstTimer meant as a full-time DH.
 

FirstTimer

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FirstTimer is suggesting that Martinez began DHing in 1995, but with the exception of 88 and 89 he DH'ed every year.

EDIT: I'm seeing now that FirstTimer meant as a full-time DH.
And even still Edgar throat stepped him.

Edgar Martinez became a full time DH in 1995. He retired three years after Baines in 2004. From 1995-2001 Edgar did the following:
5X All Star
3x Silver Slugger
Lead League in OBP 3x
1x Batting Title
1x Lead League in RBI's
1x Lead league in OPS
1x Led League in Runs
1x Lead League in Doubles
1x Lead League in OPS+
Finished 3rd in the MVP voting in 1995, 6th in 2000.
Slashed: .329/.446/.574 (OPS of 1.020' OPS+ 164)

Edgar Martinez was easily better and more accomplished than Baines when Baines retired.

There is no discussion.

After Baines retired Martinez put up three more seasons of regression numbers. He was meh. He retired then they immediately named the DH award after him. Stop making it seem like Martinez played for another 5 seasons at an elite level to "pass" Baines after Baines retired. He didn't.

Martinez last three years after Baines retired:
.278/.383/.449 (OPS .832, OPS+ 122) 1 ASG, 1 Silver Slugger.

These were not good years for Edgar given his past. Ironically, Edgar's regression seasons almost perfectly match the "average" Baines season. (.289/.356/.465 OPS of .820 OPS+ of 121)

So even Edgar's "down seasons" are pretty much better or perfectly on par with Baines average season.

You're, as usual, intellectually bankrupt.


---------------------------------------------------

I love brett's "theory" that three seasons (<400 games) of Edgar doing this .278/.383/.449 (OPS .832, OPS+ 122) 1 ASG, 1 Silver Slugger. after Baines retired catapulted Edgar past Baines on all-time DH lists. Edgar's final season(2004) was terrible. He only played 97 games in 2002. His 2003 was really good..but that's pretty much it.

:aj:
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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One thing I'm noticing about Edgar Martinez is that he didn't really play a lot until the age of 27. Seemed like those first couple of seasons he was a September call-up, or was injured. I'm certainly not going to look through game logs, but just based on raw numbers it appears he did his most damage when he was older, which is atypical.
 

brett05

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One thing I'm noticing about Edgar Martinez is that he didn't really play a lot until the age of 27. Seemed like those first couple of seasons he was a September call-up, or was injured. I'm certainly not going to look through game logs, but just based on raw numbers it appears he did his most damage when he was older, which is atypical.
Very well could have had "help"
 
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