Is the Andy Reid offensive system extremely overrated?

[run and shoot]

Some have brought Smith into the discussion, i.e. "bad "O". However there is a key element any "O" needs to be successful.

Even though Smith was great enuff to coach us to a SB.....he was still missing that one key element on "O" that Reid always seems to have.......

C'mon Andy.....
Dumb play-call 2nite.....now u don't have the key element on "O" a ........Qb

 

[ijustposthere]

Some have brought Smith into the discussion, i.e. "bad "O". However there is a key element any "O" needs to be successful.

Even though Smith was great enuff to coach us to a SB.....he was still missing that one key element on "O" that Reid always seems to have.......

Yeah, and who picked and developed said QBs? Andy Reid was a QB coach, he recognizes talent and brings the most out of that talent. There is no comparison between Lovie and Reid.

 

[Pegger]

Some have brought Smith into the discussion, i.e. "bad "O". However there is a key element any "O" needs to be successful.

Even though Smith was great enuff to coach us to a SB.....he was still missing that one key element on "O" that Reid always seems to have.......

So Andy has a better "O" face?

To be clear Lovie was a success. He didn't accomplish the ultimate goal of winning a Superbowl, but there was still a lot of good in there. He was 81 - 63 (.563), which is very respectable especially when you consider the level of talent he inherited from Dick Jauron/JA days.

I completely agree when they let him go. Things just get stale and after a while the same coach can only say the same thing so many times until it doesn't land. I also think when you see how things went for Lovie in Tampa (8-24) and now in Illinois (11-31) unlike Reid he's not been able to evolve his defensive scheme and I'm not sure he's much of a recruiter.

 

[ijustposthere]

So Andy has a better "O" face?

To be clear Lovie was a success. He didn't accomplish the ultimate goal of winning a Superbowl, but there was still a lot of good in there. He was 81 - 63 (.563), which is very respectable especially when you consider the level of talent he inherited from Dick Jauron/JA days.

I completely agree when they let him go. I also think when you see how things went for Lovie in Tampa (8-24) and now in Illinois (11-31) unlike Reid he's not been able to evolve his defensive scheme and I'm not sure he's much of a recruiter.

Urlacher/Briggs/Tillman/the Browns, then drafting Tommie Harris and trading for Ogunleye before Smith even coached a game? He came into a lot of budding stars on that defense.

 

[Pegger]

C'mon Andy.....
Dumb play-call 2nite.....now u don't have the key element on "O" a ........Qb

I'm assuming you are talking about the QB sneak.

Some are bashing him for that. I do have one question - When was the last time a QB got hurt doing a QB sneak? I'd argue running a QB sneak is way safer for the QB than any passing play.

 

[run and shoot]

Some have brought Smith into the discussion, i.e. "bad "O". However there is a key element any "O" needs to be successful.

Even though Smith was great enuff to coach us to a SB.....he was still missing that one key element on "O" that Reid always seems to have.......

Yeah, and who picked and developed said QBs? Andy Reid was a QB coach, he recognizes talent and brings the most out of that talent. There is no comparison between Lovie and Reid.

Ok I get it Reid was always able to develop and have a decent Qb's. Smith never had a decent Qb....and that was the missing element. So On "O" , your absolutely right, " There is no comparison between Lovie and Reid."........since Smith never had a good Qb.

As mentioned earlier, a few others brought up Smith's name, in this thread, with regards to the Bear "O". So I was addressing it fairly.

 

[Pegger]

Urlacher/Briggs/Tillman/the Browns, then drafting Tommie Harris and trading for Ogunleye before Smith even coached a game? He came into a lot of budding stars on that defense.

Sure, but there's also some chicken or egg. Did those players have that kind of success entirely on their own or was the system a part of it?

Urlacher - Former safety, so the cover 2 was so good for him.
Briggs - He only had one year before Lovie and all of his real success happened with him. Briggs was great, but some of his success had to be the coaching he received and the positions he was put in.
Tillman - Same story as Briggs. Rookie year with one coach then his career took off in the Lovie cover-2.
Mike Brown - Missed a lot of time. Played 6 games in their 13-3 Superbowl loss season. Still a great player, but was battling his calf injuries at that time.
Harris - Could be injuries, but he really had no success outside of Chicago, which let him be a hunting 3 technique.
Ogun - Good player. Not great, but good.
A. Brown - It was like having a home grown Ogun. Nice player, but let's remember he never had more than 7 sacks in a season.

Anyway, there were absolutely some players there, but that's the way with all new coaches. Their job is to get the most out of them and I'd say for the guys you mentioned he did a good job at that. Offensively it's a different story...

 

[DanTown]

I can't believe any person is trying to have a Lovie v Reid discussion. Lovie, similar to the entire Rams staff that he came from, was surrounded by HOF level talent and a league that had terrible talent distribution due to teams just having little understanding of how to value draft picks and FAs. Lovie had a great system for the time he played in but was never able to adapt his defense or run it without supreme talent. Andy Reid has constantly shown an ability to not only adapt with the league but BE THE REASON THE LEAGUE IS ADAPTING. He's coached the past 20 years (this is year 21), here's the story

There's a reason one guy has won consistently in the NFL and the other is about to get run out of town for being a five win team in the Big Ten West.

 

[DanTown]

Sure, but there's also some chicken or egg. Did those players have that kind of success entirely on their own or was the system a part of it?

Urlacher - Former safety, so the cover 2 was so good for him.
Briggs - He only had one year before Lovie and all of his real success happened with him. Briggs was great, but some of his success had to be the coaching he received and the positions he was put in.
Tillman - Same story as Briggs. Rookie year with one coach then his career took off in the Lovie cover-2.
Mike Brown - Missed a lot of time. Played 6 games in their 13-3 Superbowl loss season. Still a great player, but was battling his calf injuries at that time.
Harris - Could be injuries, but he really had no success outside of Chicago, which let him be a hunting 3 technique.
Ogun - Good player. Not great, but good.
A. Brown - It was like having a home grown Ogun. Nice player, but let's remember he never had more than 7 sacks in a season.

Anyway, there were absolutely some players there, but that's the way with all new coaches. Their job is to get the most out of them and I'd say for the guys you mentioned he did a good job at that. Offensively it's a different story...

I think this conflates the issue with Lovie: he had a great system but that system was not adaptable to the league (think about how many more terrible QBs were actually good in that era compared to today) and had a lot of talent in the prime of their career. Once Lovie was without that advantage, he and his system has failed consistently.

The guy can't can't even get his Big Ten team to not give up 40 points and 500 yards to every team they play.

 

[run and shoot]

I'm assuming you are talking about the QB sneak.

Some are bashing him for that. I do have one question - When was the last time a QB got hurt doing a QB sneak? I'd argue running a QB sneak is way safer for the QB than any passing play.

Your point is well taken. My ultimate point is that Mahomes was not at 100%. He'd been playing on a injured ankle. So IMO, given Mahomes' health........ ya gotta be careful what type of plays are called, even if it's a Qb sneak.

Side note: I don't know if u ever played football, But a Qb sneak..... is more dangerous than it looks. You have BIG bodies all over the place, falling on top of each other....all types of extreme physical things are happening in a split second. It's basically a pile up situation where injury can easily occur.

 

[Pegger]

I think what's being missed here with Lovie not knowing how to develop a QB is that he really doesn't matter . There's no 'tried and true' blueprint for a championship coach.

I'll use two examples.

Brian Billick - He was an offensive minded coach on a team with a horrible offense that rode the coat tails of their defense. After many years of being an analyst he openly would ask for interviews and never got them. He's not that good of a coach, but had a great defensive coordinator in Marvin Lewis (who after an extremely long stint didn't win a playoff game in Cin).

Mike Ditka - Granted, different era of football, but when you look back it was largely Buddy's defense that won. Was Ditka this magical czar that could drag any team to success? Hell no. He just happened to be a great personality that was the head coach at the right place/right time.

There is no single way to win. Maybe the Pats keep winning in a certain way (cheating?), but it's not like someone can take that blueprint, press copy and recreate their success.

 

[run and shoot]

I can't believe any person is trying to have a Lovie v Reid discussion. Lovie, similar to the entire Rams staff that he came from, was surrounded by HOF level talent and a league that had terrible talent distribution due to teams just having little understanding of how to value draft picks and FAs. Lovie had a great system for the time he played in but was never able to adapt his defense or run it without supreme talent. Andy Reid has constantly shown an ability to not only adapt with the league but BE THE REASON THE LEAGUE IS ADAPTING. He's coached the past 20 years (this is year 21), here's the story

There's a reason one guy has won consistently in the NFL and the other is about to get run out of town for being a five win team in the Big Ten West.

DanTown........without a good Qb, a HC is going no where fast.

 

[Pegger]

Your point is well taken. My ultimate point is that Mahomes was not at 100%. He'd been playing on a injured ankle. So IMO, given Mahomes' health........ ya gotta be careful what type of plays are called, even if it's a Qb sneak.

Side note: I don't know if u ever played football, But a Qb sneak..... is more dangerous than it looks. You have BIG bodies all over the place, falling on top of each other....all types of extreme physical things are happening in a split second. It's basically a pile up situation where injury can easily occur.

If Mahomes was hurt he shouldn't have been in the game. If he was healthy enough to stand in the pocket and deliver passes then he's healthy enough to run a QB sneak, period. By that logic when he was limping around the previous games he should been benched until he was 100%. The Mahomes injury was a freak play. Dislocated knee cap's don't happen that often let alone on a sneak. I'd add that the outcome, being a dislocated knee cap, is not related to the un-100% ankle.

To your side note I have played and I've run QB sneaks. Played quite a few positions, but maybe I'd best describe myself as a shitty, lanky RB that could throw a football, so based on what else the roster looked like I'd be the QB and often ran the sneak. No where near the NFL, but still relevant for this conversation. It's pretty scary in that you put your head down and just climb up your OL's back trying to push things forward, but all players go into it knowing there will be contact. It's almost as you are pushing with your legs never fully extending because you are also bracing for impact. The reason why injuries aren't overly common on sneaks is that no one is caught off guard of where the impact is coming from. Not the OL, DL, LBs or QB. It's all within a a 2-3 yard area.

 

[run and shoot]

I think what's being missed here with Lovie not knowing how to develop a QB is that he really doesn't matter . There's no 'tried and true' blueprint for a championship coach.

I'll use two examples.

Brian Billick - He was an offensive minded coach on a team with a horrible offense that rode the coat tails of their defense. After many years of being an analyst he openly would ask for interviews and never got them. He's not that good of a coach, but had a great defensive coordinator in Marvin Lewis (who after an extremely long stint didn't win a playoff game in Cin).

Mike Ditka - Granted, different era of football, but when you look back it was largely Buddy's defense that won. Was Ditka this magical czar that could drag any team to success? Hell no. He just happened to be a great personality that was the head coach at the right place/right time.

There is no single way to win. Maybe the Pats keep winning in a certain way (cheating?), but it's not like someone can take that blueprint, press copy and recreate their success.

Ya gotta first have a Qb to develop.

On Billick.....he was lucky that Dilfer was a competent enuff Qb, who didn't hurt the "O".

On Lewis.....he never had a good, "next level, winning Qb". On Ditka, he had McMahon, who was a smart leader, winner and clutch Qb. Take a look at where we ranked on "O" in 1985.

On the Pats, guess what they've always had....hint it starts with the letter "Q"

 

[run and shoot]

Your point is well taken. My ultimate point is that Mahomes was not at 100%. He'd been playing on a injured ankle. So IMO, given Mahomes' health........ ya gotta be careful what type of plays are called, even if it's a Qb sneak.

Side note: I don't know if u ever played football, But a Qb sneak..... is more dangerous than it looks. You have BIG bodies all over the place, falling on top of each other....all types of extreme physical things are happening in a split second. It's basically a pile up situation where injury can easily occur.

If Mahomes was hurt he shouldn't have been in the game. If he was healthy enough to stand in the pocket and deliver passes then he's healthy enough to run a QB sneak, period. By that logic when he was limping around the previous games he should been benched until he was 100%. The Mahomes injury was a freak play. Dislocated knee cap's don't happen that often let alone on a sneak. I'd add that the outcome, being a dislocated knee cap, is not related to the un-100% ankle.

To your side note I have played and I've run QB sneaks. Played quite a few positions, but maybe I'd best describe myself as a shitty, lanky RB that could throw a football, so based on what else the roster looked like I'd be the QB and often ran the sneak. No where near the NFL, but still relevant for this conversation. It's pretty scary in that you put your head down and just climb up your OL's back trying to push things forward, but all players go into it knowing there will be contact. It's almost as you are pushing with your legs never fully extending because you are also bracing for impact. The reason why injuries aren't overly common on sneaks is that no one is caught off guard of where the impact is coming from. Not the OL, DL, LBs or QB. It's all within a a 2-3 yard area.

Pegger.....I've had ankle injuries and it does have a painful effect on mobility. The only way I'd play football on bad ankle is if I were being paid millions.

Please read the links below
Patrick Mahomes' recurring ankle injury is reportedly a bigger ...


Is ankle injury affecting Patrick Mahomes' play


-----

As to your side note.....you described a text book situation. A qb sneak is a pile up / free-for-all
(it doesn't always go "text book") and I've seen ppl. get injured under the pile up.

 

[Pegger]

Pegger.....I've had ankle injuries and it does have a painful effect on mobility. The only way I'd play football on bad ankle is if I were being paid millions.

Please read the links below
Patrick Mahomes' recurring ankle injury is reportedly a bigger ...


Is ankle injury affecting Patrick Mahomes' play


-----

As to your side note.....you described a text book situation. A qb sneak is a pile up / free-for-all
(it doesn't always go "text book") and I've seen ppl. get injured under the pile up.

RE: Your thoughts/feelings on ankle injuries - Against Denver he didn't hurt his ankle. He hurt his knee cap.

RE: The article about Mahomes' reoccuring ankle injury - That was written before the game. Against Denver he didn't hurt his ankle. He hurt his knee cap.

RE: The article on the ankle injury affecting Mahomes' play - That was written before the game. Against Denver he didn't hurt his ankle. He hurt his knee cap.

RE: "I've seen ppl. get injured under a pile up" - Yep. It happens. That's football. People get injures a lot in football. In fact, did you know that last year Darren Sproles tore his ACL and broke his arm on the same play? Anyway, it's a violent game.


I think I should add, the Ankle and the knee cap are different parts of the body. The ankle is located in your ankle region. The knee cap is located closer to your knee. One more time just to make sure we are on the same page, the ankle and the knee cap are different parts of the body.

 

[run and shoot]

If Mahomes was hurt he shouldn't have been in the game. If he was healthy enough to stand in the pocket and deliver passes then he's healthy enough to run a QB sneak, period.

RE: Your thoughts/feelings on ankle injuries - Against Denver he didn't hurt his ankle. He hurt his knee cap.

RE: The article about Mahomes' reoccuring ankle injury - That was written before the game. Against Denver he didn't hurt his ankle. He hurt his knee cap.

RE: The article on the ankle injury affecting Mahomes' play - That was written before the game. Against Denver he didn't hurt his ankle. He hurt his knee cap.

RE: "I've seen ppl. get injured under a pile up" - Yep. It happens. That's football. People get injures a lot in football. In fact, did you know that last year Darren Sproles tore his ACL and broke his arm on the same play? Anyway, it's a violent game.


I think I should add, the Ankle and the knee cap are different parts of the body. The ankle is located in your ankle region. The knee cap is located closer to your knee. One more time just to make sure we are on the same page, the ankle and the knee cap are different parts of the body.

Remember what I mention earlier about Mahomes not being 100% healthy? >>>>>>post #50


So.....I was speaking to and providing articles geared toward your comment in bold above.

And, the fact that, the play-calling should've reflected and or been skewed toward protecting him. Regardless of the injured "body part" i.e. the ankle .....one is best served by using overall protective play-calling for Mahomes. Yes? No?
Maybe?

---------


The Chiefs kept possession and lost the MVP of the league for the rest of the game, and perhaps longer. The Chiefs will have a definitive answer on Mahomes’ status when more tests are done.

There were no shortage of people on social media who were expressing outrage over Chiefs coach Andy Reid calling for the face of the franchise — and arguably the entire NFL — to burrow under multiple 300-pound men to gain a yard. Mahomes entered the game battling an ankle injury that has limited his mobility for several weeks.


Was Chiefs coach Andy Reid wrong to call a QB sneak

 

[ijustposthere]

Ok I get it Reid was always able to develop and have a decent Qb's. Smith never had a decent Qb....and that was the missing element. So On "O" , your absolutely right, " There is no comparison between Lovie and Reid."........since Smith never had a good Qb.

As mentioned earlier, a few others brought up Smith's name, in this thread, with regards to the Bear "O". So I was addressing it fairly.

No comparison on D either since lovie didn't exactly kill it in that area as a hc either. Not to mention that the two best defenses he did have coincided with Rivera being the DC, a coach from Andy reid's tree.

 

[TL1961]

Meh

sure but the we’re moving goalposts. You won’t find an argument from me that Andy Reid is a complete letdown in the playoffs but at least he’s gotten teams there a bunch of times.

He is a very good coach with a big playoff monkey on his back.

I like him, yet somehow get some pleasure seeing him fail in the postseason. I also will be happy if/when he wins it all. Sort of like with Ovechkin in hockey

 

[Anytime23]

I also will be happy if/when he wins it all.

me too. He’s been through a lot. would be nice to see him to get that monkey off his back.