IST: Cubs at Brewers up at Wrigley North

ChicagoBornCalifLiving

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wtf was wrong with quintana tonite....he look mentally and physically handicapped out there
Their entire pitching staff minus Lester is a mess, their D has been below average and the offense has run hot and cold. If they are not careful they could be 7 1/2 games out before they play their first home game.
 

SiDe WaYs

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Is this the tail end of this team?! The team we saw a World Series victory. That we waited out whole lives for
 

CSF77

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Their entire pitching staff minus Lester is a mess, their D has been below average and the offense has run hot and cold. If they are not careful they could be 7 1/2 games out before they play their first home game.
When it is a staff issue normally the PC gets the axe.

Read that he has a game plan and expects the pitchers to just execute pitches that the catcher call. Pretty robotic IMO

I just don't see this working out honestly. Maybe with home made pitchers brought up under this method. But these guys have been brought in from various methods and now you are putting them all in the same box of follow our game plan and don't think.
 

CSF77

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Other than taking an online course in Sabermetrics, what was Tommy Hottovy’s experience in being a pitching coach?
Is it crazy to wonder if the issue is something other than the pitchers? I mean even if you were pessimistic coming into the season there's no way you thought they'd be *this* bad and even if you thought some of the guys might, you didn't think they ALL would be this bad. I sorta feel like maybe they need a vet catcher to be a calming force and to call better games.
Here is my take.

Hottovy was promoted to push data pitching. They must have a staff of data monkeys in the back room then they compile and push sequences based off of each pitcher to hitter.

The catcher is following the data sequence. And the pitcher is just executing pitches.

That is what Hottovy was talking about on the Cubs site.

Joe on the other hand was saying the pitchers shouldn't follow a pitching plan and should stay in their strengths.

This feels like a melt down honestly.

Data baseball vs organic
 

CSF77

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During the previous series in Atlanta, where the Braves swept the Cubs in a three-game set, Maddon noted that many of the relievers might be better served pitching to their strengths rather than relying heavily on scouting reports. Hottovy noted the main message to the pitchers in that regard is to follow the plan being presented by catchers Willson Contreras and Victor Caratini.
 

A.C. Milan

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During the previous series in Atlanta, where the Braves swept the Cubs in a three-game set, Maddon noted that many of the relievers might be better served pitching to their strengths rather than relying heavily on scouting reports. Hottovy noted the main message to the pitchers in that regard is to follow the plan being presented by catchers Willson Contreras and Victor Caratini.
I think Maddon should have the final say
 

CSF77

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Data is supposed to be a tool. This has a feel of the players are the tool now.

This was bound for failure
 

fatbeard

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Data is supposed to be a tool. This has a feel of the players are the tool now.

This was bound for failure
You don't know what the problem is. None of us do. Sounds like you're just trying to grind an axe against analytics. Hate to break it to you, but the Cubs were doing analytics in 2016, too.

Frustrated fans grasping at straws...
 

anotheridiot

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Data is supposed to be a tool. This has a feel of the players are the tool now.

This was bound for failure
It's not like I have a gripe about the pocket protector guys, but this is what happens when you hire mathematicians to coach baseball millionaires.

At least they did not crawl under a rock licking their wounds and put some effort in making a game out of it. Eventually the ball players show up. If not for Eric guns thames dinger they would have tied it up.

Still say they gotta start rotating some players and I think Edwards is the only one with options.
 

beckdawg

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Jesse Rogers is suggesting one or two moves in the bullpen before the game. Presumably Edwards going down is a safe bet. Could also see rosario going down.
 

CSF77

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Wouldnt be shocked if this was the personal reason for the last PC step down. Kintzler did talk about how he was more of stick with his sinker type and attack with it. Then he came in and got force fed reports and following game plans.

So I see this as the front office as the controller and the players following direction.

How many times do you see a pitcher and catcher on the mound discussing a sequence? All of the time. It is about those to discussing a approach. Sure they have tendancy info that they have seen but that is part of the discussion then they go with a plan on that sequence.

This feels like the back office is just taking that process away and they have never even pla
You don't know what the problem is. None of us do. Sounds like you're just trying to grind an axe against analytics. Hate to break it to you, but the Cubs were doing analytics in 2016, too.

Frustrated fans grasping at straws...
Ever wonder why Jim Hickey stepped down for unknown reasons?

Why Kintzler targeted having to follow game charts as his fall out in CHC vs being a sinker pitcher. Then Maddon telling him to follow his strengths?

Yes you are right. The know part is only for those personally involved
But when there is a reported issue of coach hired to push data ball and manager saying trust your self. And ex-PC walking away.

Ya I can speculate that real players are sick of the nerds taking over the game.
 

chibears55

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Wouldnt be shocked if this was the personal reason for the last PC step down. Kintzler did talk about how he was more of stick with his sinker type and attack with it. Then he came in and got force fed reports and following game plans.

So I see this as the front office as the controller and the players following direction.

How many times do you see a pitcher and catcher on the mound discussing a sequence? All of the time. It is about those to discussing a approach. Sure they have tendancy info that they have seen but that is part of the discussion then they go with a plan on that sequence.

This feels like the back office is just taking that process away and they have never even pla


Ever wonder why Jim Hickey stepped down for unknown reasons?

Why Kintzler targeted having to follow game charts as his fall out in CHC vs being a sinker pitcher. Then Maddon telling him to follow his strengths?

Yes you are right. The know part is only for those personally involved
But when there is a reported issue of coach hired to push data ball and manager saying trust your self. And ex-PC walking away.

Ya I can speculate that real players are sick of the nerds taking over the game.
What you say makes sense, nothing against Data, it works, but sometimes you can have a Data overload..

I mean you watch and you see everyone pulling out their plastic cards and clipboards and tablets to look at something that tells them what their supposed to do on every pitch..
Sometimes you just need to play the game and do your own thing
 

fatbeard

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But I guess that makes you in favor of the nerds homer.
The guy touching himself while thinking naughty thoughts about the Astros front office is now decrying that the nerds are ruining baseball.

The fucking irony.
 

beckdawg

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Miguel Montero

@miggymont26


I cough the same exactly guys and they can pitch !!! Give some time or call a better game
Found this sort of interesting given my comments last night talking about bringing in a vet catcher. Obviously it's hard to quantify calling a good game because we don't know who's idea individual pitches were but feels like something worth considering.
 

beckdawg

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Also something rather interesting... there's a lot of good teams who have started terrible. Boston is 2-7. Yankees are 3-4. Cleveland is 4-3. Houston is 3-5. Washington is 3-3. STL is 3-4. So while the cubs have looked bat at least in the pitching department they aren't the only team with issues.
 

fatbeard

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Found this sort of interesting given my comments last night talking about bringing in a vet catcher. Obviously it's hard to quantify calling a good game because we don't know who's idea individual pitches were but feels like something worth considering.
Not really buying this. The Cubs pitching was largely fine with Contreras in 2017 and 2018. Now they all go off a cliff at the same time? I'm much more inclined to believe this is a Chili Davis-type issue with the coaching or game planning affecting the entire staff. No reporting of that yet, but I wonder if the beat guys start getting hints to that effect if this continues.
 

beckdawg

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Not really buying this. The Cubs pitching was largely fine with Contreras in 2017 and 2018. Now they all go off a cliff at the same time? I'm much more inclined to believe this is a Chili Davis-type issue with the coaching or game planning affecting the entire staff. No reporting of that yet, but I wonder if the beat guys start getting hints to that effect if this continues.
True... but it certainly does feel like there's something not entirely related to individual pitchers going on here. I mean it could be that the game plan willy is calling is sorta set up ahead of time and that's the issue. That would explain a difference from 2018 to 2019
 

CSF77

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True... but it certainly does feel like there's something not entirely related to individual pitchers going on here. I mean it could be that the game plan willy is calling is sorta set up ahead of time and that's the issue. That would explain a difference from 2018 to 2019
I feel that a pitching coaches job is to be a mechanic. Move arm slot or foot placement.

It seemed what he was doing was good early spring. Got the gun out and using tech to max out performance. That bit I really liked.

But this whole new info coming out feels sour. Basically you don't think. We do that for you. It feels wrong by nature.

I get knowing a hitters tendancies and the catcher and pitcher talk how they want to exploit with the compiled data but this feels like a video game
 
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