Maddon or the Players? Who regressed and who improved under Maddon?

JP Hochbaum

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This seems to be some basic logic, but if a team fires it's manager for not getting the most out of it's players, then why does the front office want to trade away one of its core?

It doesn't seem to be a logical move to blame a manager and then trade a player(s). I could understand it being both sides, where the manager wasn't doing the GM's bidding and the players were not performing up to par, but if the reason a manager is fired is because of a lack of accountability and under performance then it is reasonable to assume that no trades would be needed, just a new manager who can get players to take it up a level.

So let's use this thread to discuss whether or not Maddon helped the young core get better. On this list let's limit this discussion to players brought up through our system or traded for at an age before their prime. Feel free to make your own list and see where we find agreements on who performed better or worse than their potential.

Obvious Progressions:
Javier Baez
Wilson Contreras

Obvious Regressions:
Addison Russell
Jason Heyward
Albert Almora
Ian Happ

Stayed the same or to close to put into obvious:
Anthony Rizzo
Kyle Hendricks
Kris Bryant
 

JP Hochbaum

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For the record, a few days ago, I thought it was a bad move to fire Maddon, so I hope this OP doesn't imply that I wanted him fired.

But after a few days I started to hear more reports about Maddon and started to change my mind about his coaching abilities. So I hope this doesn't come off as biased against Maddon, as I still believe he is a Chicago treasure and will be sorely missed in many ways.
 

anotheridiot

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I dont know if I would put Willson into that, if he really progressed then Joe would have put him in the lineup more. It was sick watching just catch 2 starters and not the rest.
This is the buddy Maddon deal of just not understanding pitchers or how to use them. I mean, there had to be some kind of complaint that pitchers did not want him back there.
Hard case manager would tell those pitchers to deal with it, we have THE all star catcher who will save outs with pickoffs and caught steals.
Javy WAS the ninth pick in the draft, he always had the skills, bottled up his first two seasons here, then watch THE MOST EXCITING baserunner in baseball get stuck behind Rizzo when Nick was brought in was just wrong. Nobody can convince me otherwise.
 

CSF77

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Happ progressed at the end of the year. His regression was being forced into leading off and the league adjusting to him.

I wouldn't attest this to Joe. It is a common thing for a 2nd year player to be trainwrecked. He was successful year 1 because he was rushed up and proper scouting reports were not made on him.

This is a reason why you don't lead off with Nico. He was rushed up and there are gaps in his playing time. Teams just don't have detailed info on him. So next year he will be a known product with no advantages.
 

JP Hochbaum

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Happ progressed at the end of the year. His regression was being forced into leading off and the league adjusting to him.

I wouldn't attest this to Joe. It is a common thing for a 2nd year player to be trainwrecked. He was successful year 1 because he was rushed up and proper scouting reports were not made on him.

This is a reason why you don't lead off with Nico. He was rushed up and there are gaps in his playing time. Teams just don't have detailed info on him. So next year he will be a known product with no advantages.
Yeah it was hard to add Happ to progression because of the sample size. Would love to see him play everyday next year and see if he really has arrived.

When I refer to regression I mean not coming close to their AA/AA production.
 

CSF77

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Yeah it was hard to add Happ to progression because of the sample size. Would love to see him play everyday next year and see if he really has arrived.

When I refer to regression I mean not coming close to their AA/AA production.
Happ was rushed up. Had success in his first year then failed as a lead off.

Schwarber failed at first

Baez failed at first

Rizzo failed at first.

It is common. It is the same as expecting a temp to do equal work as a regular employee with 15 years of experience. Never happens.
 

anotheridiot

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Happ progressed at the end of the year. His regression was being forced into leading off and the league adjusting to him.

I wouldn't attest this to Joe. It is a common thing for a 2nd year player to be trainwrecked. He was successful year 1 because he was rushed up and proper scouting reports were not made on him.

This is a reason why you don't lead off with Nico. He was rushed up and there are gaps in his playing time. Teams just don't have detailed info on him. So next year he will be a known product with no advantages.
Cant attest it to Joe when the guy spent half the year at AAA. You cannot take a failure from an absolute upper cut free swinging Happ to the approach Nico has. I figured people would be on Theo's sack for finding this guy at 25, not immediately be trying to say how awful he is going to be.
Big difference when a guy is hitting 8th and not getting shit to swing at with the pitcher on deck.
 

CSF77

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Cant attest it to Joe when the guy spent half the year at AAA. You cannot take a failure from an absolute upper cut free swinging Happ to the approach Nico has. I figured people would be on Theo's sack for finding this guy at 25, not immediately be trying to say how awful he is going to be.
Big difference when a guy is hitting 8th and not getting shit to swing at with the pitcher on deck.
I believe that they had Happ level his swing some in AAA. He was all loft.
 

MarylandBear111

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IMO Maddon was just the right guy at the right time. I think the team bought into his ways and it was clear it soured by the end of this season.
The guy will forever be in the hearts of Cub fans for getting a Series win but the team regressed and the farm got depleted in the process of trying to win.
I don't fault Theo for trading away Tores for Chapman. I don't fault him for the Q trade either.
In the end, I hated the day in and day out moves Maddon would make. I don't think players can ever find a groove if they are always switching spots in the lineup and getting benched for others.
Sure injuries factored in this season but Maddons processes soured with everyone involved I think.
Nothing against Maddon at all. He is a hero. But it was time to move on.

Id argue that players neither improved or regressed, except Javy. He clearly has improved. But How much of that is Javys doing?
Schwarber improved....this season. not sure that is on Maddon or Schwarbers hard work.
Rizzo was Rizzo
Heyward was Heyward
Bryant was injured but was Bryant
Almora is what he is
Happ is growing hopefully he is like Schwarber
All pitchers are aging.
And most of that series team is gone.
 
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