***OFFICIAL*** REAL QB Matchup IGT - Watson vs Mahomes IGT - Texans @ Chiefs IGT

Status
Not open for further replies.

sevvy

Get rich, or try dying
Donator
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
13,098
Liked Posts:
21,704
Location:
Charlotte, NC
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bears
Of course it's frustrating. Everything about this franchise is frustrating. But what's done is done. Pace made the choices he made and we're stuck with that reality. No use crying over spilled milk.

That's not enough here. You have to draw your line in the sand and say, "Trubisky is a bust. He sucks, I won't put up with it anymore. I'm so fucking done with Trubisky! And I'll make sure to point this out with every post I make here."

Of course, that is completely meaningless. The season will progress as it's going to progress. As long as he's healthy, Trubisky will be the starting QB of the Chicago Bears... until he isn't. But somehow, on this forum, talking as much shit about Trubisky as you can vindicates you. That gives you power over the mindless Trubisky homers. 90% of which are just people that want to be patient and see how he continues to develop, because we have no other fucking option anyway. Lol.
 

Broc

well baked
Donator
Joined:
Aug 20, 2012
Posts:
6,570
Liked Posts:
10,109
You are the king of wild exaggeration and absolutes.

When I say good QBs can overcome line problems, I mean they can still produce at a high level despite the problems elsewhere, not that they're invincible and can win every game.

It's absurd that I need to say this.

So now "finding a way to succeed" = "throwing for a bunch of yards in losing efforts"... gotcha ?
 

Briggs is GOAT

Well-known member
Joined:
Jun 14, 2013
Posts:
16,979
Liked Posts:
13,178
Location:
Los Angeles CA
He had better stats last year. I don't think he was as good as his average stat line looked like. He feasted on a couple of blowouts against bums and an easy schedule. If you look at his mean games (taking out the best and worst one or two), it's subpar.

But away from stats, actually watching him play, it was obvious that he isn't good. He doesn't look like an NFL QB most of the time. His awareness, accuracy, vision are all shockingly bad to the eye test.

I don't think he'll ever be a franchise QB of the kind of QB who can win big games for you by taking them over. That doesn't mean he can't be around when some big wins happen, like other bad Bears QBs in the past have been.

Honestly if you can't see that he's bad, I can't tell you anything else. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I have nothing new to debate about this that hasn't been said already.
I just don't think we can definitively say whether he's bad or not just yet.

I lean towards him not being the guy, but I think you have a tendency to exaggerate the negatives in his play and downplay the positives in his play.
 

WindyCity

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
Posts:
30,816
Liked Posts:
35,721
I just don't think we can definitively say whether he's bad or not just yet.

I lean towards him not being the guy, but I think you have a tendency to exaggerate the negatives in his play and downplay the positives in his play.

I do not think the debate is about good or bad.

It is whether he is good enough for the Bears to win a Super Bowl with. This current version is not good enough.
 

Briggs is GOAT

Well-known member
Joined:
Jun 14, 2013
Posts:
16,979
Liked Posts:
13,178
Location:
Los Angeles CA
I do not think the debate is about good or bad.

It is whether he is good enough for the Bears to win a Super Bowl with. This current version is not good enough.
Ok well then we can make good = good enough for the Bears to win a superbowl with, and we can make bad = not good enough for the Bears to win a superbowl with.
 

bearmick

Captain Objectivity
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Aug 20, 2012
Posts:
37,895
Liked Posts:
43,086
I just don't think we can definitively say whether he's bad or not just yet.

I lean towards him not being the guy, but I think you have a tendency to exaggerate the negatives in his play and downplay the positives in his play.

Ok ?
 

sevvy

Get rich, or try dying
Donator
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
13,098
Liked Posts:
21,704
Location:
Charlotte, NC
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bears
I lean towards him not being the guy, but I think you have a tendency to exaggerate the negatives in his play and downplay the positives in his play.

The funniest thing about Mick is that when Trubisky does something good, he'll begrudgingly admit that he played well. When he plays average or below average, he'll go on a fucking tirade about how much he sucks, for weeeeeeks. Like he just fucking snaps and shreds Trubisky. Lol.
 

Outlaw Josey Cutler

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Nov 5, 2012
Posts:
4,300
Liked Posts:
2,527
Location:
NJ
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Penn State Nittany Lions
You're misunderstanding me. It's not about singling-out Nagy. It's about remaining objective in evaluating the multitude of issues at play here. The crux of my argument is that people are letting their emotions and envy of Mahomes and Watson's early success taint their perspective and evaluations of this team and Mitch.



Unless that translates into a deeper playoff run than last season, no, I wouldn't consider that scenario a "win".



Perhaps, but who's to say that hypothetical QB would still end up great in a completely different situation. I think it's naive to assume you can just swap players into vastly different situations and expect identical results.

I just have zero interesting in these types of hypothetical arguments.

How dominant would the Bears have been if they didn't pass on Rodgers back in 2005?

Answer: who fucking cares.

Let's discuss what's actually going on here in reality with the players we actually have, not obsess over hypotheticals.



Depends, do you plan on creating endless threads crying about it? Pretty sure everyone here is in agreement that Pace fucked up so I'm not sure what you're cringing about exactly. I don't see him getting much love and adoration from anyone.
As for ownership, I'm not sure why anyone would care what PR bullshit comes out of Halas Hall. They're going to tow the company line and support their staff/players right up until the moment they don't and said person is let go. Not sure what your expecting here.



This dumb narrative that Mahomes/Watson somehow transcend the need of support from their teammates is obnoxious as fuck. Again, if Mahomes is such an ugodly talented he doesn't require support, how did he possibly lose to a vastly inferior team riddled with injuries starting a bunch of nobodies in the secondary? According to the narrative being peddled here Mahomes and Watson should never lose a game right?

Ok, so it's worthless to wonder how good the Bears would have historically been with Rodgers … on a Bears board meant for Bears chat including historical triumphs and blunders.

And it's "crying" to criticize Pace for ongoing subpar play in terms of "creating endless threads" … on a Bears board meant for threads to be created.

So basically you are "crying" that people talk about things here that you personally don't like to talk about as you also spin their points into straw for your counterpoints . Now I got you.

This is an actual discussion that is not going away any time soon, so if you find this obnoxious, maybe take a break for a while?

Or you could engage in a debate with fair intent for some decent back-and-forth. Your first post did this well enough I thought. Your position had some areas that were not really wrong before you flailed wildly for a little bit there towards the end of the day.

But I find obnoxious is:

people who view their position as so rock solid that they cannot discuss rationally and try to dismiss the other side as preposterous without bothering to argue the points out. You started arguing rationally but now forgo arguments for outright dismissing everyone else as "crying" and their points "worthless" portraying your esteemed self as above all that. Bet that must feel good.

People here accuse Mick of arguing disingenuously all the time. But in my experience here, his accusers have all been guilty of it far more often that I have seen him do it. All my subjective opinion though based on memory.
 
Last edited:

Novak

Mod in Training/Fire Forum
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '21
Joined:
Sep 7, 2014
Posts:
16,086
Liked Posts:
12,652
Ummmmm.....







Clearly the implication here is that Mahomes/Watson are so supremely talented that surrounding deficiencies are irrelevant since their immense individual talent allows them to cover up those deficiencies and they find ways to succeed regardless.

I simply disagree with that narrative.

If they can succeed despite OL issues how do you explain Mahomes losing to an inferior Indy team fielding a backup QB and ravaged secondary?

According to Mick, "good QB's find ways to succeed despite OL issues" so according to his logic Mahomes should of easily been able to overcome his OL's struggles and shred that scrub secondary for an easy win right? Weird how that didn't happen.

It's almost as if the game of football is more nuanced than simply who has the more talented QB...:unsure:
Let me make it simple for you...

Every QB struggles. Every QB makes mistakes. Every QB is going to have a bad game from time to time.

When you zoom out and look at the bigger picture, the good QBs spend more time prospering than struggling. The elite QBs elevate rosters to the next level a lot of the time - we've seen this over the years with Brady. He's won SB's with some rosters that probably aren't SB worthy. Rodgers has had a lot of success on some pretty bad rosters. Same with Brees in years past. We're watching Mahomes do it this year with a banged up offense. These guys are elite.

I haven't yet seen Watson elevate his team to that extent, he's very good but I would not call him elite at this point. Still, he's been great.

I've said multiple times that Trubs has disguised how bad this offensive line is because his pocket awareness and mobility are top tier. He's elevated the pass protection tremendously.. unfortunately the buck ends there. He's, well... Struggling. He's not making the WRs better. He's not keeping defenses honest to assist in the run game. He's done the opposite of elevate the rest of the team.

You're spiraling, hard.. and I don't get why/what your stance actually is. This isn't an all or nothing scenario. No QB is so good that the rest of the team is irrelevant. However, an elite QB can and has transformed many teams from average to elite. Do you honestly think Trubs is capable of that?

Stop using absolutes. Football has very few hard-line 'rules'.
 

Broc

well baked
Donator
Joined:
Aug 20, 2012
Posts:
6,570
Liked Posts:
10,109
Ok, so it's worthless to wonder how good the Bears would have historically been with Rodgers … .

Yup, completely worthless... but I'm pro freedom of speech so wonder/post all you want. Go ham and create a billion worthless threads for all I care. Maybe I'll chime in and mock them, maybe not. Depends how busy I am at work...

And it's "crying" to criticize Pace for ongoing subpar play in terms of "creating endless threads" … on a Bears board meant for threads to be created.

Depends on the frequency. Any criticism come off as "crying" when done excessively regardless of validity.

So basically you are "crying" that people talk about things here that you personally don't like to talk about here as you also spin their points into straw for your counterpoints . Now I got you.

I don't think I post enough for my critiques to qualify as "crying" but I can understand how someone with an opposing perspective who's being criticized by me would think otherwise.

This is an actual discussion that is not going away any time soon, so if you find this obnoxious, maybe take a break for a while?

I actually already take frequent breaks from posting here. I spent most of the off season talking politics in the B&I forum rather than engage with the same handful of repetitive FA/draft arguments here. I typically ignore most of the worthless stuff posted here but if I'm bored enough at work sometimes I'll pop in to argue just for the sake of arguing, like I'm doing here in this thread.

Or you could engage in a debate with fair intent for some decent back-and-forth. Your first post did this well I thought. Your position had some areas that were not really wrong before you flailed wildly for a little bit there towards the end of the day.

That's because my first post was when I was still at work. The rest were after I had smoked several bongs and eaten a very potent homemade cannabis cookie. Not my best stuff admittedly but I think I was able to better clarify my position this morning once I was back at work. ?‍♂️

Bet that must feel good.

Yup, feels great.

People here accuse Mick of arguing disingenuously all the time. But his accusers have all been guilty of it far more often that I have seen him do it. My subjective opinion though based on memory.

Clearly your memory is worse than mine, and that's saying a lot with how much I pot I smoke. ?
 

BearClaw55

SELL THE TEAM
Donator
Joined:
Aug 13, 2010
Posts:
2,079
Liked Posts:
1,782
They would both be literally ded if they were on the Bears.

I doubt it... Watson got sacked a league leading 62 times last year & still lead the Texans to the division title.

No excuses for Mitch...
 

Broc

well baked
Donator
Joined:
Aug 20, 2012
Posts:
6,570
Liked Posts:
10,109
You're spiraling, hard.. and I don't get why/what your stance actually is. .

Let me make it simple for you...
The crux of my argument is that people are letting their emotions and envy of Mahomes and Watson's early success taint their perspective and evaluations of this team and Mitch.

Hopefully that clears it up.

This isn't an all or nothing scenario. No QB is so good that the rest of the team is irrelevant. However, an elite QB can and has transformed many teams from average to elite. Do you honestly think Trubs is capable of that?

Not from what we've seen from him so far this season. Where we differ is in completely writing the kid off. I want to see more before declaring the kid a complete scrub and bust. I don't think it's smart business to make major investments in someone and then immediately throw them away without first trying every option available to make them successful.

Not saying you waste 10 years on the kid like they did with Cutler but you at least have to give him until it's time to make a decision on an extension or not. You've made the investment you might as well make damn sure you're not giving up and cutting bait too early. The last thing you want is him going to some other team and pulling a Drew Brees resurgence while we sit here with a revolving door of QB's because we're holding out for the next generational Mahomes type talent.

Stop using absolutes. Football has very few hard-line 'rules'.

You guys should take your own advice. Seems like you guys are pretty absolute when it comes to Trubisky.
 

HeHateMe

He/Himz/Hiz
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Aug 20, 2012
Posts:
55,637
Liked Posts:
60,411
Listen,

I think we all can agree, as bears fans we want to see better play than the repulsive display he has put on so far this year. I get what @Broc is saying too, while we know Mitch is garbage, put the right things in place around him, while he is cheap, we might be able to win division champs, maybe even a superbowl, then they can dump him or make him backup before he is too expensive and sign a real QB who isn't complete chit.

Broc is right it isn't worth while bagging on Mitch, we agree he sucks already, enjoy what Watson and mahommes do knowing Mitchell is basically a scrub in comparison, but dont let that ruin your day.
 

Dragon Slayer

Formerly Hawkeye
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '21
Joined:
Mar 1, 2015
Posts:
33,022
Liked Posts:
39,607
Mahomes has the anticipation and ball placement to throw people open. That's what good QBs can do.
Yup, Mitch has no vision or anticipation. If that light bulb hasn't come on by now, it's never going too.
 

Dragon Slayer

Formerly Hawkeye
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '21
Joined:
Mar 1, 2015
Posts:
33,022
Liked Posts:
39,607

It's funny to go back and listen to the analysis before the 2017 draft. Stephen A and McNabb killed this one.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top