Replacement GM and Coach

vadarx

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That's fair, but I think it's tough to say either way. Like I said before, I still think Toews could be an excellent player, especially on a deep team. Unlike Kane, you can still play him in any situation -- PP, PK, late in games, d-zone draws. Couple that with the fact that he plays arguably the toughest position in the game and has more playoff experience than most in the league, that would be enticing to teams. Granted he may not be the lights-out player he used to be; I'd still say he's a damn good player that teams would want -- but like I said, tough to say definitively.

I also feel the same way about Keith, for what it's worth. I think teams would jump at the chance to have him -- not just because his salary is low, but because he would still be an excellent player on a Cup-contending team.
if he had Keith's deal, I would agree for sure. but that deal having to be absorbed by a contender would be tough. we would likely have to take back at least one shitty contract and I'd rather not do that. plus, like I said, I don't want to ever see him traded. period.

I agree on Keith, I think he actually would garner a return as well. the problem with trading him is obvious, though, and that is why I doubt he will be. heck, of all the core, he might end up being the guy that spends his whole career in Chicago.
 

Granada

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if he had Keith's deal, I would agree for sure. but that deal having to be absorbed by a contender would be tough. we would likely have to take back at least one shitty contract and I'd rather not do that. plus, like I said, I don't want to ever see him traded. period.

I agree on Keith, I think he actually would garner a return as well. the problem with trading him is obvious, though, and that is why I doubt he will be. heck, of all the core, he might end up being the guy that spends his whole career in Chicago.

Yes, out of anyone in the core, he definitely has the best chance. His salary will only get more reasonable (assuming the Cap continues to increase yearly).

I think the hardest salary to ever move (if it needs to come to that) would be Seabs, even before Toews and Kane.
 

vadarx

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Yes, out of anyone in the core, he definitely has the best chance. His salary will only get more reasonable (assuming the Cap continues to increase yearly).

I think the hardest salary to ever move (if it needs to come to that) would be Seabs, even before Toews and Kane.
o, without a doubt. he actually might he there with Keith as far as playing for only one team. I think he gets bought out after 20-21 if we can't talk Seattle into taking him. no way someone trades for him, or at least no one that he will agree to.
 

LordKOTL

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I hope you're being sarcastic. Trent Yawney was a terrible coach with a terrible team. One year wonderless. Nearly last in both GF and GA....replaced Sutter who everyone knew could coach but was strapped with a group of awful me-first players. He annouced he was quiting to care for his down syndrome son but it wasn't really a secret that he just wanted out of Dodge.
They brought Yawney in.....did virtually nothing but look stupid and got launched a year later early in the season before he could destroy a group of kids lead by Keith and Seabrook. Brought in one of my favorites of all time in Savard to coach....I hated it when they dumped him for Q. It was obviously the right move but I didn't know that at the time and was pissed.

So, you're comparing Crash to Yawney? Wow....you must really hate JC.
...so how's that different than what we got now?
 

Granada

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o, without a doubt. he actually might he there with Keith as far as playing for only one team. I think he gets bought out after 20-21 if we can't talk Seattle into taking him. no way someone trades for him, or at least no one that he will agree to.

I do agree, but I must admit, I literally said the exact same thing about Soupy :LOL:
 

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blackpep72

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I wasn't saying Toews would go to Toronto -- you said teams wouldn't afford that type of salary for a 2LC; Toronto already does with Matthews and Tavares.

Ok good point. For a 2LC in his prime I suppose its worth it.
 

Raskolnikov

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The thing I don't understand, is how for like 7 years until the last 1 or 2 drafts Stan completely ignored physical attributes, like skill is great but none of our guys have the prerequisite physical traits to excel in NHL. Worse, highly skilled guys is a sign of early maturation, so they start small and never grow. Just early bloomers and like many short men he drafted like height was over rated. Size is not though and they are correlated.

Now our team struggles just to survive on the ice and looks desperate just to burn some minutes and get through games alive.
 

Raskolnikov

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We had like 7 hinostrozas at one point, but none of them had his poacher ability.
 

Granada

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The thing I don't understand, is how for like 7 years until the last 1 or 2 drafts Stan completely ignored physical attributes, like skill is great but none of our guys have the prerequisite physical traits to excel in NHL. Worse, highly skilled guys is a sign of early maturation, so they start small and never grow. Just early bloomers and like many short men he drafted like height was over rated. Size is not though and they are correlated.

Now our team struggles just to survive on the ice and looks desperate just to burn some minutes and get through games alive.

I don't mean to defend Bowman, but I think his thought process was speed and skill -- which would have been fine with me, had he actually picked the right players who could excel in spite of their size. But he didn't. It would have been one thing if he picked smaller players who can actually produce (see Debrincat), but not only did he pick smaller players, he picked smaller players who - for all intents and purposes -- sucked.

Now, he's just confused. He's abandoning his original strategy of speed and skill and adopting one of physicality -- but the thing is, I have little to no doubt that Bowman will simply pick the wrong type of players in this newfound category all the same. Because he's a shitty GM.
 

LordKOTL

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I don't mean to defend Bowman, but I think his thought process was speed and skill -- which would have been fine with me, had he actually picked the right players who could excel in spite of their size. But he didn't. It would have been one thing if he picked smaller players who can actually produce (see Debrincat), but not only did he pick smaller players, he picked smaller players who - for all intents and purposes -- sucked.

Now, he's just confused. He's abandoning his original strategy of speed and skill and adopting one of physicality -- but the thing is, I have little to no doubt that Bowman will simply pick the wrong type of players in this newfound category all the same. Because he's a shitty GM.
I think it's more along the lines of Stan being the type of GM that is good at keeping the band together and navigating the cap to keep a good team good. You can say he had little influence over the 2010 squad other than ditching Barker, but he did make enough right moves between then and 2015 to get us 3 cups. If that was easy then we might have seen more from teams like Boston in that interim and it not having been the Chicago/LA show between 2010 and 2015.

The problem though is that Stan doesn't appear to be a builder at all--not like Smith/Tallon were at least--and that's where you're spot on. He doesn't seem to have the ability to evaluate talent/projection. He may be good at getting depth guys when the top-end talent is there and performing, but the 'hawks haven't been there since the last cup run. He basically botched up the transition by either assuming the core was as-good as it was during the runs and they could handle the load, or assuming his acquisitions could take over driver roles and they never could.

The core is aging out--if not to a man then as a whole. Kane can't keep doing everything. Keith & Toews are still at least somewhat producing but not at their peak and for how much longer? We all know about Seabs. To me that's a critical mass of elite talent that is simply not elite anymore--except of course Kane. Kane himself can't be the driver--we needed quite a few players performing that high over the course of our cup runs.

So what was Stan's answer? Debrincat is the only real "hit" but he's in a slump now shooting only 6%. Where's everyone else? Gus? Guy is effectively Leddy without the D prowess. As you mentioned in another thread Dach may be years away.

I don't think Stan is a horrible GM--not as bad as Pullford was anyway. But he's definitely not good at the task at hand--and that's building a team from little or nothing.
 

Granada

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I think it's more along the lines of Stan being the type of GM that is good at keeping the band together and navigating the cap to keep a good team good. You can say he had little influence over the 2010 squad other than ditching Barker, but he did make enough right moves between then and 2015 to get us 3 cups. If that was easy then we might have seen more from teams like Boston in that interim and it not having been the Chicago/LA show between 2010 and 2015.

The problem though is that Stan doesn't appear to be a builder at all--not like Smith/Tallon were at least--and that's where you're spot on. He doesn't seem to have the ability to evaluate talent/projection. He may be good at getting depth guys when the top-end talent is there and performing, but the 'hawks haven't been there since the last cup run. He basically botched up the transition by either assuming the core was as-good as it was during the runs and they could handle the load, or assuming his acquisitions could take over driver roles and they never could.

The core is aging out--if not to a man then as a whole. Kane can't keep doing everything. Keith & Toews are still at least somewhat producing but not at their peak and for how much longer? We all know about Seabs. To me that's a critical mass of elite talent that is simply not elite anymore--except of course Kane. Kane himself can't be the driver--we needed quite a few players performing that high over the course of our cup runs.

So what was Stan's answer? Debrincat is the only real "hit" but he's in a slump now shooting only 6%. Where's everyone else? Gus? Guy is effectively Leddy without the D prowess. As you mentioned in another thread Dach may be years away.

I don't think Stan is a horrible GM--not as bad as Pullford was anyway. But he's definitely not good at the task at hand--and that's building a team from little or nothing.

I think any GM could "fill" around a hall-of-fame core. The hard part, as you alluded to, is creating the core -- and Bowman has shown that he knows nothing as to how to build a core from the ground up. Yeah, he was able to get filler pieces like Handzus, Richards, Madden, etc. -- but those type of moves aren't hard in my view.

I agree that Kane can't keep doing everything. This team needs a legitimate top-six, and they simply don't have one. Nylander and even Dach in the top-six isn't the answer. Not only that, but you have Kubalik and Kampf also in your lineup -- these are all too green of players. Instead of getting a legitimate top-six -- or even a legit top four (de Haan and Maatta are not legit in my view) -- he blows his biggest signing on Lehner (a guy who will only play of the regular season games, at best).

I'm not sure the Debrincat signing will age well. I know we've discussed it before, but I feel like, without Kane, Debrincat is in trouble. I don't think he can carry an offense and even a line by himself. It would be great if he could be thrown on the third line to carry it, but again, I don't think he can. The league is wise to him now. Yes, the 40 goal season was great, but teams are wise to him now. He is easily neutralized more often than not, especially recently. If he doesn't possess the elusiveness of Kane -- which is incredibly difficult to replicate for any player, if not impossible -- he'll struggle. The nice thing with him though, is that it's only a 3 year contract and it isn't in the 8-10 mill range.
 

Rinkrat21

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Bowman still has his job? Someone wake me up when he is finally gone. Until then, it will be more of the same.

Guy has been bad at his job for years, isn’t getting any better at it at all, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the team never makes the playoffs again until he is gone.

Complete shame what has become of this franchise. We finally break through decades of the dark ages to win some Cups and within a few shorts year, right back to the stone age. And there is one guy who is mainly responsible.

Until he is shown the door, this team will continue to be in deep, deep trouble.
 

Granada

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Bowman still has his job? Someone wake me up when he is finally gone. Until then, it will be more of the same.

Guy has been bad at his job for years, isn’t getting any better at it at all, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the team never makes the playoffs again until he is gone.

Complete shame what has become of this franchise. We finally break through decades of the dark ages to win some Cups and within a few shorts year, right back to the stone age. And there is one guy who is mainly responsible.

Until he is shown the door, this team will continue to be in deep, deep trouble.

Yeah, it isn't a surprise that it's just getting worse. It's almost impressive how Bowman can make a bad situation even worse -- just look at the coaching situation right now. They replaced a hall-of-fame coach with Jeremy freaking Colliton; and now that Crawford is being investigated, they couldn't even fire Colliton if they wanted to.
 

Rinkrat21

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Yeah, it isn't a surprise that it's just getting worse. It's almost impressive how Bowman can make a bad situation even worse -- just look at the coaching situation right now. They replaced a hall-of-fame coach with Jeremy freaking Colliton; and now that Crawford is being investigated, they couldn't even fire Colliton if they wanted to.
It's a mess man. First we have the coaching debacle which, as every new days passes, the firing of Q looks worse and worse. Then we have the numerous offseason moves made by SB which have not improved the team one bit. And now with the injury bug floating around, the lack of depth within the organization is extremely scary. Where the hell are ANY draft picks SB has made besides Dach or Boqvist over the last 3-5 years???? Oh yeah, the one decent one who could actually be helping got traded to Buffalo for some half ass forward. Terrible.

It's bad and its gonna keep getting worse before it gets better unless this guy is finally fired and someone comes in to gut it and rebuild it from scratch.

Whether he stays or goes, its gonna be years and years and years before this team is competitive again. Thanks a lot Stan for a job poorly done.
 

Rinkrat21

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I think it's more along the lines of Stan being the type of GM that is good at keeping the band together and navigating the cap to keep a good team good. You can say he had little influence over the 2010 squad other than ditching Barker, but he did make enough right moves between then and 2015 to get us 3 cups. If that was easy then we might have seen more from teams like Boston in that interim and it not having been the Chicago/LA show between 2010 and 2015.

The problem though is that Stan doesn't appear to be a builder at all--not like Smith/Tallon were at least--and that's where you're spot on. He doesn't seem to have the ability to evaluate talent/projection. He may be good at getting depth guys when the top-end talent is there and performing, but the 'hawks haven't been there since the last cup run. He basically botched up the transition by either assuming the core was as-good as it was during the runs and they could handle the load, or assuming his acquisitions could take over driver roles and they never could.

The core is aging out--if not to a man then as a whole. Kane can't keep doing everything. Keith & Toews are still at least somewhat producing but not at their peak and for how much longer? We all know about Seabs. To me that's a critical mass of elite talent that is simply not elite anymore--except of course Kane. Kane himself can't be the driver--we needed quite a few players performing that high over the course of our cup runs.

So what was Stan's answer? Debrincat is the only real "hit" but he's in a slump now shooting only 6%. Where's everyone else? Gus? Guy is effectively Leddy without the D prowess. As you mentioned in another thread Dach may be years away.

I don't think Stan is a horrible GM--not as bad as Pullford was anyway. But he's definitely not good at the task at hand--and that's building a team from little or nothing.
Even one of his "good" attributes in your opinion can be debated - good with the cap. While there are numerous examples of that not being the case, I will simply mention "the Brent Seabrook" contract and leave it at that.

The guy has been horrible. Most GM's could have kept the team SB inherited together. Dont forget, when the team was loaded, some guys were coming here at a discount just for a shot at winning a Cup. Richards is one example of that. That wasnt a "good" SB move. That was a guy who was late in his career, looking for the best possible chance to win a Cup, even if it meant taking a discount on his salary. You or I could have signed Richards. That was a gift, not a "good" Stan move.

Now that most players probably dont have an interest in coming here unless its for the most money, SB is being exposed for the fraud he has always been. And its been going on for years, right before our very eyes.
 
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Tater

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Well said Rinkrat. Rocky really needs to pull the pin and get rid of Bowman and Colliton asap. Give a new GM and coach time this year to get things turned around.
 

chris71

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The season is already over as we are unlikely to make the play offs as this team under Colliton just isn't capable of putting the kind of run needed to get up into the playoff race let alone make the play offs.

Time to bin Colliton with immediate effect as the team is going no where under him and he's had long enough to have at least shown some improvements in the performance but there simply is non. Put Crawford in as interim HC with the view of earning the HC job next season if he turns things around.

Get rid of Bowman now as the longer he stays on the more damage he is doing and longer it will take to repair and get back to where the Hawks should be.

As for GM replacement I don't have the names but leaving it a month or two before bringing in a new GM won't hurt anymore than having Bowman still having his fingers in the pie and frankly we have nothing to lose right now.

For me Q shouldn't have been binned but think he was hung out to dry by Bowman, and you don't bin a coach of Q's experience and ability to bring in a novice like Colliton at any level let alone NHL.
 

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