This is negative, just to warn you, but Theo can't fix this team's problem

kerrywoodwins20

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The main problem with this team is pitching. Theo can't evaluate pitching. They've had less pitching contribution from his draft picks than any other team in the league since Theo took over. And I know that is by design, focusing on college bats and such. But there are plenty of organizations that find pitching talent later in the draft and develop it. The Cubs can't. And it hasn't really been addressed, I listened to that whole press conference the day after the season hoping he would mention it directly.

Without Theo getting lucky on some throw ins to find Hendricks and Arrieta, especially Arrieta, this team would have had a glaring weakness at the top of the rotation even in the prime years (2015-2017). We haven't gotten lucky like that recently, so what you're seeing is an overpaid, underperforming pitching staff. And who is going to fix it? Theo can't. And for this team to get back on top, it pretty much has to happen.

I feel the offense will more or less be good, with maybe a career year from Schwarber, but I don't see a path to success for this pitching staff that doesn't involve spending hundreds of millions on guys like Cole. And I doubt they have the green light for that.
 

beckdawg

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I don't really agree that he can't evaluate pitching. You're premise that they haven't developed pitching isn't wrong but the reasoning IMO is. The issue is more complex than people make it. They don't look at the reasoning why the front office made the decisions they did. Now I'm speculating here but I'm willing to bet my reasoning is pretty in line with there thinking.

To start with, pitching in general is a giant fucking gamble. You guys remember Mark Appel who went 1-1 out of college? He's no longer in baseball. Jon Gray and Kohl Stewart were also in that 2013 draft as top 4 picks. Kris Bryant was the right pick. And I mean I can go on and on here. So, if you know pitching is a giant gamble, focusing the rebuild on hitting is much safer. I think most people get that part. The part they don't understand is the plan wasn't really to fill the teams pitching needs via the draft. Because they so heavily invested(wisely) in hitting they had a boat load of money to go after FA pitchers. And that's largely what they did. So, knowing that was always the plan they focused on safer pitchers who were quicker to the majors. Basically think of it like this.... if you know you're going to buy your #1 and #2 starters in FA you can focus on safer pitchers who can be 3-5's.

The issue is they went to conservative on their choices. That's not speculation. Members of the front office have said as much. The thing people also need to understand about the draft is it's not just where you pick. It's how you allocate your money because there's a limit to how much you can sign draft picks for. In the case of like 2012-15 they would often focus a lot of their picks on college seniors because those players sign for less than the value of their pick. That enabled them to use the left over money to sign a lot of their hitters. But as the saying goes you get what you pay for. The one case where this wasn't really the same was 2014 with Schwarber. He actually was signed for less than his value. That allowed them to spend money on Dylan Cease, Justin Steele and Carson Sands. Sands was a bust. Steele is an ok prospect still but not earth shattering and obviously Cease blew up big and was a big part of the Q trade.

After 2015, they started to change their philosophy. 2016 was a bit of an issue because they lost their first 2 picks. That draft they pulled Tom Hatch, Tyson Miller, Matt Swarmer, Micheal Rucker, Dakota Mekkes and Duncan Robinson as well as Bailey Clark and Chad Hockin who look interesting as relievers. Now truth be told, the only one of that group that looks like someone who will make the rotation is Tyson Miller at this point. But Hatch yielded them Phelps at the deadline and Swarmer and Robinson both should be good depth at AAA next year. Rucker and Mekkes look like they could be actual future bullpen arms.

In 2017, they took Little and Lange at the top but they also got Cory Abbott, Keegan Thompson, Erich Uelmen, Jeramiah Estrada, Tyler Thomas, Rollie Lacy, and Peyton Remy. Lange was the piece to get Castellinao. Lacy was to get Hamels. Tyler Thomas got Jesse Chavez. Little is still a work in progress but he had 48 k's in 48 IP last year with a 3.56 ERA across A/A+. Abbott dominated AA with a 3.01 ERA and 10.19 k/9. Thompson got hurt early in the year but he's looked really good in the AFL. Uelmen had a 3.05 ERA at A+. Estrada has had several injury set backs and he was a HSer anyways but scouts still like him. Remy had a 2.80 ERA at A.

In 2018, they took Cam Sanders(2.94 ERA in A this year), Riley Thompson(3.06 ERA in A and scouts rave about him now), Kohl Franklin(2.31 ERA at A- as a 19 year old) and Paul Richan who was sent to detroit with Lange. And none of that is to mention any of the success they have had internationally with Brailyn Marquez, Adbert Alzolay, Yovanny Cruz, Richard Gallardo and Oscar De La Cruz.

Point here is, developing pitching is not only risky but it also takes time. A generational hitter can get to the majors at 19 and most good hitters are there by 21. Hendricks debuted at 24. Jacob deGrom didn't debut until he was 26. Those first 4 drafts they were too conservative and that's biting them some now. But the last 4 drafts IMO they've done a very good job of identifying pitching.
 

beckdawg

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And just to be clear here, most of the names I mentioned as being good I don't necessarily see as being more than #3's. But the thing is, you're unlikely to pull #1's unless you're drafting in the first 15 picks or unless you find the right high school arm to over pay later and then hope he doesn't blow out his arm. What the cubs appear to be doing is focusing on higher upside international FA arms and developing them rather than strictly going after HS arms though Kohl Franklin in 2018 and DJ Herz this past draft class were two over slot arms they drafted.

I believe the reasoning is that state-side arms have a lot more wear on them because of the travel circuit where as if you sign a 16 year old out of a latin country you have more control over them. Marquez has worked out great for them that way and Gallardo could be a star if he continues to develop. If those two hit their potential they have a good shot at being top 25 prospects. Marquez can already hit 100 from the LH side he just needs to refine his third pitch. Gallardo is EXTREMELY polished for a 17 year old. It's relatively rare for IFA pitchers to start state-side in Mesa rather than at the IFA complex in the DSL. He not only did that but he also made it to Eugene for 4 innings. His results wont look amazing but the fact he's being pushed this fast shows they think he can handle the competition at a really young age.
 

anotheridiot

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We go way back when this started, he wanted to develop position players, buy arms. For some reason, he went out and bought position players and he could no longer afford arms.
There is a huge shake up with the entire scouting and player development part of this organization. Do not know what Jason McLeod is going to be doing with major league player development, if he will help Theo pick some players this winter, but he was either moved to help the big league club, or moved out of a position to get some more change happening there.
The question of the three amigos has alot to do with what are the other two actually doing?
 

Parade_Rain

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They don't do a great job developing pitching, IMHO. It's one of the reasons they were trying to contract Kyle Boddy (Driveline) to work with their pitchers. IIRC, the Phillies won that bid.
 

CSF77

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Marquez has the makings of an ace. Alozay could end up a #2 if he extends more. Abbott is a cutter pitcher. He has a Arretta feel if he fully develops. Miller hit a snag at Iowa. We will see how he rebounds.

But ya this is the best group that they assembled.
 

CSF77

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But over all.

The way I would approach the rotation is.

2020

Darvish
Lester
Hendricks
Q

I would start Alozay myself and keep him on a pitch limit. Use Mills to finish his games. See what happens

So 2021 Q off the Books and Lester with a 10M buy out. By then Marquez should be at Iowa. If not in the ST mix.

MLB FA list

Trevor Bauer, Robbie Ray, James Paxton, Masahiro Tanaka, Jake Arrieta, Marcus Stroman, Jose Quintana

So they could let Jon finish up if he has a strong 2020 or cut the losses and go after Ray or Bauer.
 

CSF77

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But Cole is either going to LAA by his childhood home. Or NYY which was his childhood team. There is no other landing spot.

MadBum the feel is sticking or going closer to his home with ATL.

So this year is a year that they should start the push for self development. So IMO the right call is to focus on that. Which means catcher quality and D quality behind the staff.

This team has become lax. Wait for the big hit and every other strength that got them over the top eroded. D from best to worst. Base running got worse and so on.
 

fatbeard

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We go way back when this started, he wanted to develop position players, buy arms. For some reason, he went out and bought position players and he could no longer afford arms.

Because some of those young position players, like Russell, Almora, and Schwarber, did not hit their projections. The Cubs were left with positional gaps that had to be addressed.
 

JimJohnson

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But over all.

The way I would approach the rotation is.

2020

Darvish
Lester
Hendricks
Q

I would start Alozay myself and keep him on a pitch limit. Use Mills to finish his games. See what happens

So 2021 Q off the Books and Lester with a 10M buy out. By then Marquez should be at Iowa. If not in the ST mix.

MLB FA list

Trevor Bauer, Robbie Ray, James Paxton, Masahiro Tanaka, Jake Arrieta, Marcus Stroman, Jose Quintana

So they could let Jon finish up if he has a strong 2020 or cut the losses and go after Ray or Bauer.

Simply put, Darvish Lester Hendricks isn't good enough. Cubs won't win jack shit with that Top 3.
 

anotheridiot

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Because some of those young position players, like Russell, Almora, and Schwarber, did not hit their projections. The Cubs were left with positional gaps that had to be addressed.
in 2016? Wasn't Almora drafted out of High school like Baez and more time was expected?
 

beckdawg

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They don't do a great job developing pitching, IMHO. It's one of the reasons they were trying to contract Kyle Boddy (Driveline) to work with their pitchers. IIRC, the Phillies won that bid.

See this IMO is the misconception people often make. I mean we both agree on the outcome but the reason I think it is happening isn't an issue with development. IMO it's an issue with who they start with. The pitchers they drafted from 2012-15 were generally guys you were pretty sure who could get to AA and AAA but they never had enough ceiling to develop into much more. There's only so much you can do with guys who rely on low 90's stuff and ground balls. They are either good enough to win with that stuff or they never make the majors. This is what I mean when I said they were too conservative.

The last 2 years specifically they've done a far better job identifying guys who are better development projects. For example, Jensen if they can get him a third pitch going will be a very interesting prospect since he already hits 98. Riley Thompson is another good example. He's always had a good combo with his fastball and curve but needed to develop a third pitch. Kohl Franklin is yet another example though he's kind of different than the first two because he's currently got a pretty good fastball/change up and needs to work on a breaking pitch.
 

CSF77

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And then do what after 2020 season? Go after a TOR?

The reality is they have to drop contract. Replacing Hamels with Alozay makes sense right now.

I believe the reality is Theo is looking at a restructuring of the team as a whole. If it is true that David got the job then I believe there will be change on the horizon.

Jon most likely will finish off his contract. Bring him in to the front office next.

Q could bring back a prospect on a sign and trade.

Contreras I'm not sure about but having David there every day can't hurt. David took pride in his framing and I expect that enforced.

So IMO David coming in means more internal turn over and boosting the system.
 

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