White Sox close to a deal for Jon Jay

brett05

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It's a good signing even if Machado doesn't come. Engel can't hit to save his life.
Jay is sliding fast. The two are closer to the same at the dish than you are giving credit. The speed and defense gives Engel an overwhelming edge.

If Machado signs with the Yankees which it does sound like is happening as soon as today, You keep Jay in RF only until you are ready to trade him, or release him for something better within the franchise.
 

The Boletarian

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Jay is sliding fast. The two are closer to the same at the dish than you are giving credit. The speed and defense gives Engel an overwhelming edge.

If Machado signs with the Yankees which it does sound like is happening as soon as today, You keep Jay in RF only until you are ready to trade him, or release him for something better within the franchise.
Disagree, he plays left for the first month until Eloy is up, then he switches to center unless you want Delmonico's bat instead (in that case he starts in center). If anything you have to play Palka in RF if no Harper since apparently we're not trading Abreu. Engel struck out 129 times in 463 plate appearances. That's terrible for a guy that hits .235 and only has 6 homers. His defensive abilities are not worth his offensive deficiencies. Brian Anderson was a great center fielder too, but he couldn't hit to save his life.

They're not closer than I think. Jay had more hits, hits for a way better average, more RBI, and a higher OBP. The only offensive stat you miss out on is stolen bases. Jay is only here until Robert is ready to move up. He's a stop gap because Engel can't get it done at the plate.
 

Grimson

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I really hope the Sox get Machado. Love having two good baseball teams to watch while waiting for Bears season. It's been a long time.
 

brett05

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Disagree, he plays left for the first month until Eloy is up, then he switches to center unless you want Delmonico's bat instead (in that case he starts in center). If anything you have to play Palka in RF if no Harper since apparently we're not trading Abreu. Engel struck out 129 times in 463 plate appearances. That's terrible for a guy that hits .235 and only has 6 homers. His defensive abilities are not worth his offensive deficiencies. Brian Anderson was a great center fielder too, but he couldn't hit to save his life.

They're not closer than I think. Jay had more hits, hits for a way better average, more RBI, and a higher OBP. The only offensive stat you miss out on is stolen bases. Jay is only here until Robert is ready to move up. He's a stop gap because Engel can't get it done at the plate.
Jay had a WAR last year of .8, Engel .6 Yes they are about the same player. Now factor in Engel is almost 7 years younger, 2nd half splits (avg/ob/slg/ops) for the two (Jay) 245/292/327/619 vs (Engel) 260/287/381/668 and Engel even with the bat is right at Jay's level now. No, we don't want Jay, he's on the downside and offers us nothing than what we already have at best.

Make it or break it for Engel. Give him the year. If he breaks, no loss.
 

The Boletarian

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Jay had a WAR last year of .8, Engel .6 Yes they are about the same player. Now factor in Engel is almost 7 years younger, 2nd half splits (avg/ob/slg/ops) for the two (Jay) 245/292/327/619 vs (Engel) 260/287/381/668 and Engel even with the bat is right at Jay's level now. No, we don't want Jay, he's on the downside and offers us nothing than what we already have at best.

Make it or break it for Engel. Give him the year. If he breaks, no loss.
Doesn't matter for Engel anymore. Last year was his make it or break it and he brought nothing offensively. He's a late inning backup now unless he shows something significantly more offensively in spring training. Having a terrible first half and a less than terrible second isn't gonna cut it. Once Robert moves up no one's taking his place. If they're able to somehow snag Harper in all of this Machado talk then he may barely get any playing time at all.
 

brett05

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Doesn't matter for Engel anymore. Last year was his make it or break it and he brought nothing offensively. He's a late inning backup now unless he shows something significantly more offensively in spring training. Having a terrible first half and a less than terrible second isn't gonna cut it. Once Robert moves up no one's taking his place. If they're able to somehow snag Harper in all of this Machado talk then he may barely get any playing time at all.
But the facts are that Engel is better than Jay and if we don't land Machado, playing Jay is making the team worse. It works against the rebuild at this stage.
 

The Boletarian

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But the facts are that Engel is better than Jay and if we don't land Machado, playing Jay is making the team worse. It works against the rebuild at this stage.
I don't believe that's accurate. Jay's stats for the whole year (since you play a whole season not a half) and his entire career are significantly better than Engel. Engel's defense is superb, but he can't continue to struggle at the plate like he did all of last year and the previous. He hit .260 in the second half and didn't even break a .300 OBP.
 

brett05

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I don't believe that's accurate. Jay's stats for the whole year (since you play a whole season not a half) and his entire career are significantly better than Engel. Engel's defense is superb, but he can't continue to struggle at the plate like he did all of last year and the previous. He hit .260 in the second half and didn't even break a .300 OBP.
You do play a whole season. Jay's numbers got worse and Engel's got better. Of course Jay had a better career. That is meaningless. Jay is on the downside and has no where to go but rock bottom which his numbers show he is heading. Adam showed improvement at the dish. His OPS was 49 points higher than Jay. It's simply that. You are overthinking this.
 

The Boletarian

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You do play a whole season. Jay's numbers got worse and Engel's got better. Of course Jay had a better career. That is meaningless. Jay is on the downside and has no where to go but rock bottom which his numbers show he is heading. Adam showed improvement at the dish. His OPS was 49 points higher than Jay. It's simply that. You are overthinking this.
I'm not sure what stats you're looking at, but Jay's total OPS was 64 points higher than Engel (.678 to .614). His OBP was also 51 points higher. This isn't even a contest here.

That's nice that Adam showed improvement, but improving from absolute dogshit doesn't impress me much.
 

brett05

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I'm not sure what stats you're looking at, but Jay's total OPS was 64 points higher than Engel (.678 to .614). His OBP was also 51 points higher. This isn't even a contest here.

That's nice that Adam showed improvement, but improving from absolute dogshit doesn't impress me much.
Did you not see the post where I showed quite clearly that Jay is crashing where Engel is starting to rise?

You quoted the post, but did you read it?
 

The Boletarian

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Did you not see the post where I showed quite clearly that Jay is crashing where Engel is starting to rise?

You quoted the post, but did you read it?
Starting to rise from should not be in the MLB to barely less than adequate is not good enough. Jay was traded during the season and had a drop off from that point. Before that he was hitting very well. Change of scenery unfortunately didn't work out quite so well.

Again, where are your stats coming from, they're not correct.
 

brett05

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Starting to rise from should not be in the MLB to barely less than adequate is not good enough. Jay was traded during the season and had a drop off from that point. Before that he was hitting very well. Change of scenery unfortunately didn't work out quite so well.

Again, where are your stats coming from, they're not correct.
baseball reference splits.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=engelad01&year=2018&t=b
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=jayjo02&year=2018&t=b
 

brett05

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His OPS is not 49 points higher than Jay's. You need to recheck the stats you just posted.
668 Engel, 619 for Jay. Engel trending up Jay trending to the end of his career. I think you are looking in the wrong spot. Look at 2nd half please. That has been the main point of the discussion how Engel is getting better and Jay who is past his prime is going down and down and hurting potential in house development.
 

The Boletarian

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668 Engel, 619 for Jay. Engel trending up Jay trending to the end of his career. I think you are looking in the wrong spot. Look at 2nd half please. That has been the main point of the discussion how Engel is getting better and Jay who is past his prime is going down and down and hurting potential in house development.
Brett, you play a whole season, not one half. Engel is only trending upwards because his offensive career has been a monumental failure so far. Going from someone that should have been sent down to AAA to someone who should be a utility late inning replacement outfielder is not impressing me. I'd take the guy who's been consistent over his whole career and was having a good stint with his original team he played for last year over a guy who strikes out 129 times and only hits 6 homers. Engel is not good in the slightest offensively and I can't wait until he's replaced with someone who's obviously above and beyond better at the plate.
 

brett05

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Brett, you play a whole season, not one half. Engel is only trending upwards because his offensive career has been a monumental failure so far. Going from someone that should have been sent down to AAA to someone who should be a utility late inning replacement outfielder is not impressing me. I'd take the guy who's been consistent over his whole career and was having a good stint with his original team he played for last year over a guy who strikes out 129 times and only hits 6 homers. Engel is not good in the slightest offensively and I can't wait until he's replaced with someone who's obviously above and beyond better at the plate.
I appreciate ya, but I am convinced you are new to the game. The trends are clear with Engel being the better player right now. Jay is slumping and is below Engel at this point offensively. And when it comes to the glove, there's nothing to debate. Engel is superior. These two reasons is why unless Machado comes is a waste of money. There is no case for Jay otherwise at this point.
 

The Boletarian

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I appreciate ya, but I am convinced you are new to the game. The trends are clear with Engel being the better player right now. Jay is slumping and is below Engel at this point offensively. And when it comes to the glove, there's nothing to debate. Engel is superior. These two reasons is why unless Machado comes is a waste of money. There is no case for Jay otherwise at this point.
Brett the only one apparently new to the game is you sir. Not only have I followed the game for near on 4 decades I also played for nearly half that. The fact you think Adam Dunn was a decent player says it all. He was absolute garbage and up to this point Engel has been as well. If Engel can't get better than .235 for a season he'll be a late inning defensive replacement for the entirety of his short career, as he should be.

One half of a season is not a trend. Hitting abysmally for the entirety of two seasons is becoming one though, and that's what Engel has done so far in his short career. Jay isn't a waste of money. Leury Garcia should never be starting for any major league team. At worst he'll play the first month in left and then he shifts to center once Jimenez comes up. He can play any outfield position just fine. If somehow Engel decides that striking out 129 times is a bad thing and actually finds his bat, they only signed Jay for one year for peanuts for a vet. It works out great no matter what.

The trade for Alonso makes less sense than signing Jay. What the hell do we do with Palka now since Abreu's staying?
 

brett05

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Brett the only one apparently new to the game is you sir. Not only have I followed the game for near on 4 decades I also played for nearly half that. The fact you think Adam Dunn was a decent player says it all. He was absolute garbage and up to this point Engel has been as well. If Engel can't get better than .235 for a season he'll be a late inning defensive replacement for the entirety of his short career, as he should be.

One half of a season is not a trend. Hitting abysmally for the entirety of two seasons is becoming one though, and that's what Engel has done so far in his short career. Jay isn't a waste of money. Leury Garcia should never be starting for any major league team. At worst he'll play the first month in left and then he shifts to center once Jimenez comes up. He can play any outfield position just fine. If somehow Engel decides that striking out 129 times is a bad thing and actually finds his bat, they only signed Jay for one year for peanuts for a vet. It works out great no matter what.

The trade for Alonso makes less sense than signing Jay. What the hell do we do with Palka now since Abreu's staying?
I'm in my fourth decade as well.
Engel did start batting better, his second half numbers show that and that is what you want to see out of a player that needs to earn more playing time. He did exactly that.

Yes second half numbers is enough of a trend. And right now he's better than Jay. It's a mistake. I hope things go well for Jay, but well for Jay is at best below average. Using k's as your argument instead of standard things like slash lines kinda says it all.

As for Alonso, you have WAY too much faith in Palka. First off, he makes Schwarber look like a GG in the Outfield. Secondly whose to say that Palka can repeat? It's never been part of his pedigree. I'd love to be wrong, but getting Alonso does several things. Adds a guy at first, adds a nice bat for the lineup, helps relieve pressure off of Abreu, comes cheap and might land us Machado. Yes, the move for Alonso >>>>>>>>> Jay
 
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