Sculpt
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pinkfloydster
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I don’t have my undies in a knot. I enjoy football.
Finding diamonds in the rough are great stories because they add tremendous value to a team. Where would RRH and Rashaad Coward have been drafted in this years draft. Yes, players careers are longer but it makes it that much more difficult to find these diamonds. But a team who can pull it off have a tremendous advantage.
Another factor not being discussed is Khalil Mack makes everyone better. Flat out. So, why pay Amukamara millions when Tolliver will do just fine. At some point Pace will have to choose. Cody Whitehair or Amukamara...can’t have both.
On Trubisky, you are 100% correct. Bears aren’t going anywhere if he keeps throwing the ball to the opposing teams safeties.
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Can't pay both because of Mack? Full circle again. Are we better off not making that trade and paying hit or miss 1st rounders that money instead?
All this about a 7th round pick. Hope he cuts the mustard but he's a 7th round pick with all that entails. Less than 1/3rd of 7th round picks are even in the league in any capacity after 2 years. Typically, less than 5% of nfl starters are 7th rounders and I would guess that many of those play G. UDFAs occupy 2-3 times as many starter positions.
pinkfloydster
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Not at all. I love the Mack trade. But as a natural consequence of that trade Toliver becomes your future cornerback. Which is a good thing cuz the market probably undervalued both of them.
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I think what some are missing here is that Denmark has a floor of "special teams ace"...and at worst will be pushing McManis to be great at that ST's captain spot or be challenged by a better athlete with similar gusto for contact.
Denmark projects as a safety for many reasons, but regardless Pagano experiments with big nickel and likely views alot of guys as just "DB's" of different skill sets he can use in different situations. I think he prefers a bunch of tools in that DB tool kit, and whatever was discussed with him when or where Pace came back with Skrine/athletic freak Denmark/ underrated pedigree undersized CB from Kansas State/ and found him HaHa Clinton Diks.
I don't care what they do, as they already accomplished giving Pagano what he wanted and asked for clearly.
Denmark projects as a safety for many reasons, but regardless Pagano experiments with big nickel and likely views alot of guys as just "DB's" of different skill sets he can use in different situations. I think he prefers a bunch of tools in that DB tool kit, and whatever was discussed with him when or where Pace came back with Skrine/athletic freak Denmark/ underrated pedigree undersized CB from Kansas State/ and found him HaHa Clinton Diks.
I don't care what they do, as they already accomplished giving Pagano what he wanted and asked for clearly.
pinkfloydster
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Don’t know why. I worry about Dix. Packers don’t get rid of players that still have some tread on the tire. I hope that Dix’s tendency to take risks on interceptions is rewarded cuz Mack gets a hand in the face of the QB
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Working with Jackson is what will help Dix out most. He covers more field so Dix can cover less.
pinkfloydster
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Let me state the problem in a different way. Why is Mahomes so darned valuable. Yea, he's an amazing quarterback. But he's on his rookie contract salary. So, from a value standpoint he's outstanding. This is true of most first and second round picks. Pace has given this up. He has to make it up somewhere. That somewhere is low picks and UDFAs.
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That's just it. You are trying to have it both ways. As has been said, if you like these players and deals, lamenting the draft picks is really silly.
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Ya, I'm sure they'll move on to make certain that they can pay for the rest of their roster when his contract is due.
He's valuable because he's good, not because he's cheap. QBs on rookie deals winning SBs are the exception and not the rule and those that have, often get back to the big game after their rookie deals. It indicates that they got there due to ability and not salary considerations. If it was the norm, this too common assumption would hold more water but there are better ways to win championships than making sure your QB is cheap.
pinkfloydster
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Numerous articles have been written about how teams with good quarterbacks in their rookie contract thrive. Once they have to pay their QB market value, then there’s a drop off. Packers have been dealing with this for some time now. Lions as well.
Look, the value added from rookie contracts isn’t something I just made up. It’s well known. It’s just a fact. And it’s 100% a fact that Pace has given this up. He’s managing the consequences extremely well and so will hopefully navigate some rough waters the next 3 to 4 years. For now, hopefully, we will enjoy Super Bowl contenders this year.
Visionman
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The problem is what you are calling "managing consequences" most people see as a calculated plan being executed to perfection...
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But the goal is to win Super Bowls and why I called it a too common assumption since there is no correlation. The actual correlation is that good QBs help you win SBs at any point in their careers. Who cares about articles when the facts say something else? If it were the better way, teams would dump their top QBs and just draft another one after 4 or 5 years. Doesn't work that way.
Again, you're all over the map here in what began as an odd statement about a 7th round draft pick. Paying meh QBs a lot of money will prevent you from winning championships because it's difficult for him to not fuck up without a superior roster but that scenario is quite rare. For every Flacco and Dilfer, there are 8 Brady's and Brees's winning a SB. A well paid top QB tends to keep you in contention if the team is simply well managed, more than any other scenario.
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How has he given it up when he literally has built a team around a QB on his rookie contract?
We wouldn't be a playoff team to begin with without Mack. The price we paid to get him and move up for the targeted franchise QB was the cost of entry. There are no amount of late round picks that can replace either of those guys.
Without Mack and Trubisky, this team is back to stalling out on a quarterback carousel and talking about the defenses of the good ol' days.
I really, really don't know what point you are trying to make by saying that Pace abandoned a strategy that you back up by pointing to sports writers.
pinkfloydster
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The quarterback was just an example. Mahomes is probably the most value added player in the NFL right now. So I used him to illustrate a point. Indeed, the fact that Trubisky is under a rookie contract is very very helpful. A fact that won't remain in a couple of years. The Khalil Mack trade, which I love, has one major penalty and that is you don't get the rookie contract benefit.
Look, all that I am saying is fact. It is a mathematical certainty. And these certainties make it absolutely necessary for the Bears to develop key contributors from low round picks and UDFAs. So, a player like Stephen Denmark, will get a close look to find opportunity more than most teams in the NFL. The Bears can make up some ground by finding free agents who are willing to get paid less to play for a contender. But at the end of the day, the numbers have to make sense.
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That's all fine but they are still not going to keep a non contributor this year to develop for 3 years hence. He'll stick if has something to offer on the field otherwise he's on a PS.
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But what you're saying isn't a fact, it's spinning facts with a backwards interpretation. There is no penalty, there is a price. We didn't lose anything, as we received better than what we traded. And we can say that with a certainty because getting Mack was a turning point for this franchise. And, bringing it back to Denmark at safety, he's sixth in line and next year we can pick a better one with one of our two second rounders.
Look, I'm not coming at you out of Animus, but you keep going back to a math claim without a demonstration that we're mathematically in trouble. You aren't substantiating anything you're saying. From what I've been shown before, the next two years will be tight on free agency spending cash, but the money still makes sense.
So unless you can bring some facts, it just sounds like you're complaining that we traded for the best OLB in the league, who made us into a contender to begin with.
Look, I'm not coming at you out of Animus, but you keep going back to a math claim without a demonstration that we're mathematically in trouble. You aren't substantiating anything you're saying. From what I've been shown before, the next two years will be tight on free agency spending cash, but the money still makes sense.
So unless you can bring some facts, it just sounds like you're complaining that we traded for the best OLB in the league, who made us into a contender to begin with.
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He's probably also talking about the 3 picks we gave for Mitch but if those picks would become starters 2 would need to get paid before Mitch does and one at the same time so the cap ramifications don't change.
pinkfloydster
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Take this for what it's worth. There is someone on Twitter (@unclemike21) who is representing himself as a host for "The Halas Hall Brawl", they have a podcast. He says that he spoke with Stephen Denmark and his mentors right now are Eddie Jackson and Ha Ha Clinton Dix.
Okay...flame away for providing information that is completely speculative.
Okay...flame away for providing information that is completely speculative.
pinkfloydster
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Fake news, vaccines cause autism, climate change is a conspiracy, tornado sirens are annoying, blah blah blah. I cannot break it down to any simpler form. As a consequence of Pace's trades, there is a vacuum of 1st through 3rd round picks for a couple of years. This causes a distortion in the value added from rookie contracts. I literally cannot be any simpler than that.
