2020 Bubble NBA Playoffs NBA FINALS EDITION LAL VS MIA

Scoot26

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LeBron is in a position to win a title without facing a decent team
It's like LeBron's entire time in the Eastern Conference.
 

Scoot26

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Doc has had 8 seasons with Clippers(feels closer to 15).

Paul and Griffin
Now Kawhi and George-some considered favorite to win it all.

Has never even made the Conference finals.

How are they so in love with him?
Not to mention, Doc has blown two 3-1 leads with the Clippers.

The 2015 Clippers blew a 3-1 lead vs Houston.
 

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I thought Kawhi went to LAC simply to be in LA and close to home. So if he leaves, where is he going?

Now them cutting Doc, yeah, I could see that.

Lakers?

LBJ has a player option as well. I can see them both opting out and working something out to be together.
 

Scoot26

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Lakers?

LBJ has a player option as well. I can see them both opting out and working something out to be together.
I'm not sure what their cap situation is going forward.

Kawhi seems to have shown no interest in playing with LeBron, but we also don't really know much about Kawhi.
 

BNB

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I guess we can put this "Kawhi is the best player in the league" business away. I never understood that narrative. I don't like Lebron, but him and KD are the only two you can compare as best players in the league. I knew this Clippers team was overrated.

I am happy to see the Nuggets do well. Gives me hope that the Bulls got the right guy to turn the franchise around.

At this point in their careers, Kawahi is definitely the better defender between the two (LBJ). Offensively, he's also a better shooter, and LBJ is a better passer. In a vacuum, I don't think it's a stretch to say Kawhi is better than LBJ right now.

Historically, obviously LBJ is better.
 

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I'm not sure what their cap situation is going forward.

Kawhi seems to have shown no interest in playing with LeBron, but we also don't really know much about Kawhi.

If they play their cards right, their cap situation will be great. Nearly everyone on their roster currently will have their contract expire at the end of next season, opening up the door for the Lakers to possibly be able to bring in 2 max players.

PG also has a player option... If the Clippers were smart, they'd either try trading him, or let him use his option and not bring him back. The Clippers, though, won't be in as good of a cap situation, so they'd have to try pulling off some sign-an-trades to bring in adequate enough talent to appease Leonard.
 

Scoot26

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If they play their cards right, their cap situation will be great. Nearly everyone on their roster currently will have their contract expire at the end of next season, opening up the door for the Lakers to possibly be able to bring in 2 max players.

PG also has a player option... If the Clippers were smart, they'd either try trading him, or let him use his option and not bring him back. The Clippers, though, won't be in as good of a cap situation, so they'd have to try pulling off some sign-an-trades to bring in adequate enough talent to appease Leonard.
Clippers not only have a terrible cap situation, they have no draft picks to trade.

I see your point on Lakers salary situation. They can do whatever they want in 2 years. Though, I am waiting for the enviable LeBron decline, though may not happen given how well he keeps himself in shape.
 

knoxville7

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At this point in their careers, Kawahi is definitely the better defender between the two (LBJ). Offensively, he's also a better shooter, and LBJ is a better passer. In a vacuum, I don't think it's a stretch to say Kawhi is better than LBJ right now.

Historically, obviously LBJ is better.

LOL Leonard is not better than lebron, even currently. I dislike lebron as much as the rest of you, but he’s still probably the best player on the planet. Lebron does everything as well or better than Leonard...even today
 

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LOL Leonard is not better than lebron, even currently. I dislike lebron as much as the rest of you, but he’s still probably the best player on the planet. Lebron does everything as well or better than Leonard...even today

I diagree. Kawhi is arguably the best two-way player in the NBA right now. Again, in a vacuum, currently Kawahi is a better defender, better shooter, and overall matches LBJ's production on offense, minus passing the ball. But that's all LBJ does better at.. passing the ball.

LBJ is just boosted by AD, who can easily cover up some of LBJ's flaws and make him look better. Last year when LBJ had no AD, he looked absolutely horrid at times on defense, even before dealing with injuries. Even in his last couple of years in Cleveland, it was obvious that LBJ was becoming a poor defender, since he needed to reserve energy on offense.

This isn't me hating on LeBron either... I think he's probably the 2nd greatest player of all time. But he's not the same LBJ as he was a few years ago, especially on defense.
 

knoxville7

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I diagree. Kawhi is arguably the best two-way player in the NBA right now. Again, in a vacuum, currently Kawahi is a better defender, better shooter, and overall matches LBJ's production on offense, minus passing the ball. But that's all LBJ does better at.. passing the ball.

LBJ is just boosted by AD, who can easily cover up some of LBJ's flaws and make him look better. Last year when LBJ had no AD, he looked absolutely horrid at times on defense, even before dealing with injuries. Even in his last couple of years in Cleveland, it was obvious that LBJ was becoming a poor defender, since he needed to reserve energy on offense.

This isn't me hating on LeBron either... I think he's probably the 2nd greatest player of all time. But he's not the same LBJ as he was a few years ago, especially on defense.

well, the numbers say otherwise.

defensive win shares
lebron - 3.6
kawhi - 3.3

total win shares
lebron - 9.8
kawhi - 8.7

VORP(value over replacement)
lebron - 6.1
kawhi - 5.1

So while kawhi is a great player, even this year he didn’t measure up to the value lebron brings overall and even on the defensive end. Has lebron regressed from his prime? Sure, but he’s still arguably the best player on the planet
 

BNB

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well, the numbers say otherwise.

defensive win shares
lebron - 3.6
kawhi - 3.3

total win shares
lebron - 9.8
kawhi - 8.7

VORP(value over replacement)
lebron - 6.1
kawhi - 5.1

So while kawhi is a great player, even this year he didn’t measure up to the value lebron brings overall and even on the defensive end. Has lebron regressed from his prime? Sure, but he’s still arguably the best player on the planet

That's why I said in a vacuum. LBJ benefits from playing next to AD. When you play next to a talent like that, your advanced stats will automatically look better. Case in point? Last year, LBJ wasn't even in the top 20 for some of these advanced stats, and in the other ones, he improved in all of them this season compared to last... and the biggest difference was the addition of AD.

If you want to use advancted stats to make an argument, would you say that Ivica Zubac, Jarrett Allen, George Hill, Rudy Gorbert, and Daniel Theis are among the best offensive players in the NBA because they finished top 5 in offensive rating? Not the best example, but you get my point.

And if you want to use Advanced Stats to make your argument, then you can't say LBJ is probably the best player on the planet, as you stated earlier, since Giannis and Harden top the charts for most of these stats. Even AD tops LBJ on a lot of these advanced stats, so LBJ may not even be the best player on his own team, let alone in the entire league.

Advanced Stats are okay in certain contexts, but when I compare two players indidually based on their current skillset, it doesn't hold as much weight, IMO. That's why you won't see me using them much in general.
 

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Clippers not only have a terrible cap situation, they have no draft picks to trade.

I see your point on Lakers salary situation. They can do whatever they want in 2 years. Though, I am waiting for the enviable LeBron decline, though may not happen given how well he keeps himself in shape.

Personally, if I were the Lakers, I wouldn't bring back LBJ if/when he opts out. Paying a 37-year old probably 30+ million is never a good idea.

I get this idea that LBJ will be taking 1-year deals so he can play with his son in a couple of years.
 

Scoot26

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Personally, if I were the Lakers, I wouldn't bring back LBJ if/when he opts out. Paying a 37-year old probably 30+ million is never a good idea.

I get this idea that LBJ will be taking 1-year deals so he can play with his son in a couple of years.
Lakers are gonna keep paying him, especially if they're winning titles/making the Finals.

LeBron may go a Kareem route in which he can play at a high level until he hits 38-39.

Jordan was still averaging 25 ppg at 39 on the Wizards before he hurt his knee. And may have done even better if he didn't have that cigar cutter injury to his hand that limited some of his ball handling ability his two years in Washington.

So there's a chance LeBron goes on as he has. He clearly given up playing lockdown D several years ago . Though shows glimpses of it in the playoffs.
 

knoxville7

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That's why I said in a vacuum. LBJ benefits from playing next to AD. When you play next to a talent like that, your advanced stats will automatically look better. Case in point? Last year, LBJ wasn't even in the top 20 for some of these advanced stats, and in the other ones, he improved in all of them this season compared to last... and the biggest difference was the addition of AD.

If you want to use advancted stats to make an argument, would you say that Ivica Zubac, Jarrett Allen, George Hill, Rudy Gorbert, and Daniel Theis are among the best offensive players in the NBA because they finished top 5 in offensive rating? Not the best example, but you get my point.

And if you want to use Advanced Stats to make your argument, then you can't say LBJ is probably the best player on the planet, as you stated earlier, since Giannis and Harden top the charts for most of these stats. Even AD tops LBJ on a lot of these advanced stats, so LBJ may not even be the best player on his own team, let alone in the entire league.

Advanced Stats are okay in certain contexts, but when I compare two players indidually based on their current skillset, it doesn't hold as much weight, IMO. That's why you won't see me using them much in general.

lebrons advanced stats are virtually the exact same this year as last. Puts a hole in your AD theory. We will have to agree to disagree
 

JimJohnson

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Personally, if I were the Lakers, I wouldn't bring back LBJ if/when he opts out. Paying a 37-year old probably 30+ million is never a good idea.

I get this idea that LBJ will be taking 1-year deals so he can play with his son in a couple of years.

That's crazy man. Lakers will continue bringing back LBJ for however long he wants to continue playing there.
 

BNB

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lebrons advanced stats are virtually the exact same this year as last. Puts a hole in your AD theory. We will have to agree to disagree

Using the Advanced stats you pointed to earlier:

Offensive Win-Shares:
18-19: 4.7 (ranked 29th)
19-20: 6.2 (ranked 8th)

Defensive Win-Shares:
18-19: 2.6 (ranked 61st)
19-20: 3.6 (ranked 10th)

Win-Shares:
18-19: 7.2 (ranked 36th)
19-20: 9.8 (ranked 7th)

Value Over Replacement Player
18-19: 4.9 (ranked 12th)
19-20: 6.1 (ranked 3rd)

How are those virtually the exact same?

His personal stats (minus assists) are similar, but the impact AD made on everything else is very clear.
 

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That's crazy man. Lakers will continue bringing back LBJ for however long he wants to continue playing there.

I know they will, just saying I wouldn't.

I'd rather invest in younger talent than paying one 30-40 million and will be depreciating in value quickly.
 

knoxville7

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Using the Advanced stats you pointed to earlier:

Offensive Win-Shares:
18-19: 4.7 (ranked 29th)
19-20: 6.2 (ranked 8th)

Defensive Win-Shares:
18-19: 2.6 (ranked 61st)
19-20: 3.6 (ranked 10th)

Win-Shares:
18-19: 7.2 (ranked 36th)
19-20: 9.8 (ranked 7th)

Value Over Replacement Player
18-19: 4.9 (ranked 12th)
19-20: 6.1 (ranked 3rd)

How are those virtually the exact same?

His personal stats (minus assists) are similar, but the impact AD made on everything else is very clear.

yeah, he was hurt last year. Let’s not change the subject to AD...the initial statement you made was that Kawhi is better than lebron at this point in their careers. That’s just not true. Of course AD helps lebron, that’s not a debate.
 

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