Bears are 1st in the NFL with 32 sacks as a team

Outlaw Josey Cutler

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People throw the word scheme around on here like they know what it means.

And I have become convinced that they do not

People stay out of football talk and gauge the dialogue and then make a general comment as to overall ignorance of others but never at specific people like they their non-engagement makes them superior posters to everyone else altogether.

And I have become convinced that they are just as searching for how the game works as most of the rest of us.
 
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Outlaw Josey Cutler

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This is the PI play. It is clear safety help.

View attachment 15684

These next 2 are the sideline play. This is clear cover 3 and Vildor has from the hash to the sideline. He has a S deep middle. His main job is to protect the sideline. This is what Quinn means by do your 1/11. The WR is cutting inside, it is not his man. Instead he follows the dude and in the 2nd image Duvernay releases outside and because Vildor has not maintained the Cover 3, it is a completion. This is basic. You dont go chasing the dude inside if you are one of the outside deep DBs in a Cover 3.

View attachment 15686View attachment 15685
And this is the blown coverage. Vildor follows the guy on the cross. There again is safety help deep and look at Quinn bearing down. If Vildor had just guarded his man, Huntley likely doesnt risk the throw and possibly takes the sack. Instead Watkins is so open that Hutley can easily make this play before the S can get over the top.

View attachment 15687

You cant win with this CB play. Dude fucks up when he has S help and dude fucks up when he is the fucking deep guy and only has a third of the field to cover.

Ah, those images came through.

How is cover 3 safety help? The concept behind cover 3 is that the corners have to own the verticals by themselves and can only have safety help on the inside breaking routes. And from my memory Vildor got beat vertically meaning Desai asked something yet again of his crappy CB that he cannot do.

Also from my memory (I don't have all-22) this was a break from what had been working vs. Huntley and certainly not the best concept to confuse a young QB.

With Vildor here, cover 2 shell or cover 4 shell with flooded zones underneath the deep safeties that would be harder for the kid to hit in the windows leaving him only short routes wide open and no routes one-on-one even for a short time (ie Vildor would have help both inside and deep in case he again blows it).

For Desai not to do this all the time makes sense as we would be open to death by a thousand 7-8 yard passes and big runs all day for forever but at THIS point in the Ravens game, that would have been irrelevant.
 
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Aesopian

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wasnt talking about you but i might as well had. Im just looking forward to your new flavor of the week coaching candidate that you havent heard of yet

Sounds like a challenge.
 

ChiKhan

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And a practice squad secondary besides Jaylon. Thanks Pace
 

pablovi

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Incorrect. They still have a decent pass D because of the pass rush not the secondary. And this is why Bears fans don't understand defensive schemes. You can't play a bunch of cover 2 with only 7 men in the box if your run D is getting gashed. So the reason they play so much single high or Cover 3 is so they can put a S in the box to try and help stop the run.

So it is a catch 22. Bears fans are crying about why Desai doesn't help Vildor by playing more Cover 2 but he can't play more Cover 2 without exposing an already shoddy run D. So he plays more Single high and Cover 3 to try and stop the run but the biggest issue in the run game is tackling and the DTs not keeping blockers off the LBs.

Roquan's run D grade is 35.9 despite all the tackles and tackles for loss. That is because PFF grades on a -2 to +2 scale so the problem is anytime Quan can't run around a blocker or run free he gets swallowed up by blockers. This is obvious if you ever watch his highlights. His tackles are almost always when he is unblocked or beats the defender to the the hole. The other issue is because he tries to run around blocks he is often times out of position or out of his gap so if the RB cuts back there is a huge hole. He doesn't like to stick to his gap and take on the block. The run game is all about maintaining your gaps and the Bears have DTs that get pushed around and LBs that are always running out of their gap to get around blockers instead of taking on blocks and shedding. It used to be that DT was the ILB that took on blocks but he is broken and Ogletree also likes to run around blocks rather than take them on.
So, he’s scheme is to stop the running game, yet they’re bottom 5 in the league? and that speaks good of this guy?

And if it’s a catch 22 works both ways, maybe they’re getting beat in the air because of the scheme? Maybe the lone man or two in the secondary are not confident enough because of the scheme and resort to committing penalties.

We give Nagy shit for the offense because that’s what he does. Desai Scheme is to stop the run and yet they’re bottom 5 in the league! But it’s all on the players.
 

remydat

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Ah, those images came through.

How is cover 3 safety help? The concept behind cover 3 is that the corners have to own the verticals by themselves and can only have safety help on the inside breaking routes. And from my memory Vildor got beat vertically meaning Desai asked something yet again of his crappy CB that he cannot do.

Also from my memory (I don't have all-22) this was a break from what had been working vs. Huntley and certainly not the best concept to confuse a young QB.

With Vildor here, cover 2 shell or cover 4 shell with flooded zones underneath the deep safeties that would be harder for the kid to hit in the windows leaving him only short routes wide open and no routes one-on-one even for a short time (ie Vildor would have help both inside and deep in case he again blows it).

For Desai not to do this all the time makes sense as we would be open to death by a thousand 7-8 yard passes and big runs all day for forever but at THIS point in the Ravens game, that would have been irrelevant.

Ok you are jumping ahead. Your gripe was no safety help. Do you acknowledge that on 2 of the 3 big plays on the final drive Vildor had S help but still fucked it up? He had it on the PI and he had it on the big Watkins play. So is it Desai's fault he failed to cover Watkins and carry him to the S?

Once we agree he had safety help on the majority of those plays then the question becomes is giving him S help on every single play making it too easy for the O? If an O knows your CB is so bad that you are going to play with S help every single play then do you think they can't adjust?

3rd, is it your argument that you cant expect an NFL corner to play Cover 3. You reference Cover 4 but Cover 3 and Cover 4 both require the CBs to cover a deep zone. So even if you play Cover 4 that means Vildor does not have S help in his zone. It just means his zone is a deep quarter not a deep 3rd as in Cover 3.

Cover 3 is a standard concept and actually one meant to protect the CB because the CB has a straghtforward read and his only job really is to stay in his deep 3rd and stay over the top of the WR. It doesnt get much easier than that. Vildor was 10 yards off his man and all he had to do was protect the sideline. He went chasing a dude in someome else's zone instead.

Essentially you are saying the Bears can never blitz and never play anything other than Single high or Cover 2 in crunch time if you expect Vildor to always have S help. That makes the O's job easy especially when Vildor will still fuck it up. So you want to make the D predictable and never blitz when Mack is out just son the QB can easily read the D and still be content knowing Vildor will still fuck up somehow.
 
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remydat

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So, he’s scheme is to stop the running game, yet they’re bottom 5 in the league? and that speaks good of this guy?

And if it’s a catch 22 works both ways, maybe they’re getting beat in the air because of the scheme? Maybe the lone man or two in the secondary are not confident enough because of the scheme and resort to committing penalties.

We give Nagy shit for the offense because that’s what he does. Desai Scheme is to stop the run and yet they’re bottom 5 in the league! But it’s all on the players.

No the point is the players are clearly not executing. They are getting gashed on the ground even when in 8 man fronts and dudes are getting torched in the air even when they have safety help.

Sometimes it is the players fault. If you have 8 guys against 6-7 blockers then the players are fucking up.

Let me ask a simple question. What is your thought process in trying to distinguish when the scheme is at fault vs when a player has fucked up their assignment in the run game?
 

pablovi

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No the point is the players are clearly not executing. They are getting gashed on the ground even when in 8 man fronts and dudes are getting torched in the air even when they have safety help.

Sometimes it is the players fault. If you have 8 guys against 6-7 blockers then the players are fucking up.

Let me ask a simple question. What is your thought process in trying to distinguish when the scheme is at fault vs when a player has fucked up their assignment in the run game?
To me, the scheme doesn’t work, if you cannot make it work with the players you have. that’s a failure in my book, and everywhere I’ve worked. If I cannot do the job I’ve been paid to do, I cannot blame my tools or the people I’m in charge with, it’s my fault. If I cannot do the job I took and knew what I had to work with, then I’m the failure for that job.
 

ZenBear34

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To me, the scheme doesn’t work, if you cannot make it work with the players you have. that’s a failure in my book, and everywhere I’ve worked. If I cannot do the job I’ve been paid to do, I cannot blame my tools or the people I’m in charge with, it’s my fault. If I cannot do the job I took and knew what I had to work with, then I’m the failure for that job.

So if you're in charge of a project, and someone else picked who worked under you, and one of those guys doesn't do their job, it's your fault?

That's not how it works.
 

Raskolnikov

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Not a fan of Desai at all. He gets torched when it matters most. But he is better than Pagano as Pagano bizarrely called a mostly conservative defensive scheme with some top-notch pass rushing talent up front.
How about we get Desai some cornerbacks. This group is so subpar we should be getting absolutely torched every week and yet we don't.

That makes me want to look for other issues before we give up on Desai.

Granted it could be a long time before we assemble another front 7 like this, but the sacks haven't really come from where you would expect and where you have paid for either. It's been a group effort.
 

Raskolnikov

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This should be a sack on a key drive. However, Vildor fails to even guard Watkins and as a result Hutley has an easy pass to an uncovered WR. If Vildor guards the right man then Huntley cant throw that ball with Vildor and a S over the top so he likely holds the ball a tad too long for the sack or has to throw it away.

The problem is obvious. Teams dont even throw to Johnson much anymore. Just throe to whoever Vildor or Burns is guarding.
Yeah I can't recall a more DB deficient team that has no offense and doesn't play with a lead ever rank top 5 in sacks.

It's quite unusual and you gotta keep Desai and see more.
 

pablovi

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So if you're in charge of a project, and someone else picked who worked under you, and one of those guys doesn't do their job, it's your fault?

That's not how it works.
Yeah, you either fire him, put him in a place he can work or remove him from the responsibility.

I’m a cinematographer and photographer, if my focus puller is not doing the job, it’s my responsibility to first, remove him from the job, and if I can’t do the job myself. Tell the producer to get someone else in his place. I cannot say after doing the job and it’s all out of focus, hey, that guy did it wrong!
Neither with equipment, tools or time. When I take a job, they tell me, you’re gonna have this camera, this lights, this crew and this much time. I cannot make excuses after they told e and I took the job. Even if a camera breaks, or dont arrive, I can refuse to keep working, but if I do the job, I cannot make it my excuse. if you take the job for the day, you need to make a good job, regardless of the conditions.

Going back to football, so, you can only held accountable coaches who have great players? I mean anyone can coach with great players. Anyone accepting the Detroit job, knows what they’re getting themselves in to, and no one is expecting they win the division or anything, just be average. And if they cant do the job, they get fired, because they’re not the man for the job.
 

Calabis

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Vildor passing rating against 136.7

Burns passing rating against 137.5

Fuller passing rating against 2019 87.1

Desai doesnt get torched when it matters most. Vildor and now Burns get torched when it matters most.

There is very little a DC can do when your 2nd CB is giving up a near perfect passer rating no matter who you put there.

This is even more telling because the Bears lead in sacks so the 2nd CB is getting torched despite the DL providing decent pressure.
This just made me sit on the curb, rethink my life decisions and cry. Vildor.....fuck u!
 

remydat

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To me, the scheme doesn’t work, if you cannot make it work with the players you have. that’s a failure in my book, and everywhere I’ve worked. If I cannot do the job I’ve been paid to do, I cannot blame my tools or the people I’m in charge with, it’s my fault. If I cannot do the job I took and knew what I had to work with, then I’m the failure for that job.

That is very noble of you. Don't think anyone is obligated to follow your unrealistic example though.

I suppose this means you dont a thought process on how to distinguish between scheme issues and the players sucking.
 
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remydat

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Yeah, you either fire him, put him in a place he can work or remove him from the responsibility.

I’m a cinematographer and photographer, if my focus puller is not doing the job, it’s my responsibility to first, remove him from the job, and if I can’t do the job myself. Tell the producer to get someone else in his place. I cannot say after doing the job and it’s all out of focus, hey, that guy did it wrong!
Neither with equipment, tools or time. When I take a job, they tell me, you’re gonna have this camera, this lights, this crew and this much time. I cannot make excuses after they told e and I took the job. Even if a camera breaks, or dont arrive, I can refuse to keep working, but if I do the job, I cannot make it my excuse. if you take the job for the day, you need to make a good job, regardless of the conditions.

Going back to football, so, you can only held accountable coaches who have great players? I mean anyone can coach with great players. Anyone accepting the Detroit job, knows what they’re getting themselves in to, and no one is expecting they win the division or anything, just be average. And if they cant do the job, they get fired, because they’re not the man for the job.

This is an unrealistic example. NFL players are a scarce commodity. You cant just swap them out like you can other people in other professions.

There are 82 CBs that have played 50% of snaps this year. Vildor ranks 82 out of 82. Like Jesus Christ, no one is saying Desai needs elite players. We are saying he needs at least average players. The issue is Vildor literally has the worst passer rating against of any CB in the NFL. And we tried to replace him with Burns and Burns passer rating was even worse than Vildor's. So we literally have the worst CB in the NFL and hisnreplacement is just as bad.

In fact, if you include all defenders, Vildor ranks 280 out of 286 players so he is literally one of the worst coverage players in the entire NFL.

So this is like you having the worst focus puller in the industry and then when you try and replace him you end up with the new worst focus puller in the industry.
 
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pablovi

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This is an unrealistic example. NFL players are a scarce commodity. You cant just swap them out like you can other people in other professions.

There are 82 CBs that have played 50% of snaps this year. Vildor ranks 82 out of 82. Like Jesus Christ, no one is saying Desai needs elite players. We are saying he needs at least average players. The issue is Vildor literally has the worst passer rating against of any CB in the NFL. And we tried to replace him with Burns and Burns passer rating was even worse than Vildor's. So we literally have the worst CB in the NFL and hisnreplacement is just as bad.

In fact, if you include all defenders, Vildor ranks 280 out of 286 players so he is literally one of the worst coverage players in the entire NFL.

So this is like you having the worst focus puller in the industry and then when you try and replace him you end up with the new worst focus puller in the industry.
Again, pass yards are not the problem. Viador is one player, how about Eddie Jackson, he’s playing almost at the same level as Vildor.

So, I wonder when you’re hired as a coach, what do they say? Hey, I don’t think I can makes this guys play average, let alone good, I mean, I know they have been a top 10 defense the past two years, or very close to one, but now the players all suck, so, don‘t expect me to be even average, bottom 10 is almost a guarantee. That’s what they say? Or they say, I know what players I’ve got, and I know I can win with them, and be above average to very good, in the case of the defense.

Two different previous coaches have been better with 70% of this players. Heck I’ve said it since 2019, Fangio made this average players look good with his scheme and the great Mack, Hicks, Smith, Floyd and Goldman.
 

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