Bears vs Rams Review - Was Nagy and Desai the problem?

mecha

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When I think playcalling, I don't think of the plays themselves but the sequencing and substitutions. The plays are fine and always have been. Putting in Fields for an end around at midfield after Dalton has a good throw or pulling Monty while on a roll, timeouts before play calls because you don't have one ready is part of that for me. If the D isn't giving you deep, draw them deeper with those speed guys you wanted so bad and throw under them, etc.

You don't just take what's given and let the D dictate your calls. Make them react to you instead of the other way around.
all of this. Nagy's "tempo" if you will really sucked. I can't weigh in on Desai. there have been new coaches that have won games, probably super competitive ones, so I don't really buy that argument. either he has his shit together or he doesn't. hopefully the team makes adjustments over time. that's all.
 

remydat

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I just watched the highlights and looked at the boxscore for that Bills game (I know not much to go on), but I think the difference is that Bills offense used the entire field. The Bears dinked and dunked, but it was mostly to the outside. If the ball went in the middle, it was to Kmet or Williams. No concerted effort (per usual) to get their 3 speed WRs crossing the field and getting the Rams chasing. I don't believe any of the 12 catches from Goodwin, Mooney and Byrd were between the hashes. Hell, I don't think Robinson had more than 1 between the hashes and he was in the slot most. The Bills had a lot to WRs in the middle of the field (taking advantage of the Bears nickel situation). Then there were multiple plays in the highlights where the WRs cleared out the underneath for the TEs and backs to get YAC. I don't think you need to really have success deep, but you have to have a threat there, either to threaten or clear out so the defense isn't sitting on the short stuff.

That is fair but would still point out that doesn't really impact the failure in those 5 situations I pointed out.
 

iueyedoc

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Can't bring myself to read the vortex but I can imagine what it says. Yes it is Nagy and Desai's faults. Whatever habits they allow are on them. Well coached teams don't make the same effort mistakes year after year. At some point enough is enough.
 

pinkfloydster

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My conclusion in reviewing the tape is that Nagy is a problem but not in the way people are saying. Nagy's problem is his stupidity in going away from stuff that is working like Monty and the gimmick shit that kills momentum and drives. You can also say his problem is choosing Dalton over Fields. However, last night there was a lot of talk about the gameplan and playcalling that I thought sort of missed the point.


27 seconds - This is a mistake I expect from Fields not Dalton. Dalton stares down his WR and doesn't make sure the guy in a zone over Kmet follows him. This play call is actually 100%, it is Dalton that fucks this up. You have to throw off the defender that tips the ball. If he stays with Kmet then you throw to Mooney. If he lets Kmet go then you throw to Kmet. This is actually a TD and likely changes the whole dynamic of the game if Dalton makes the right play instead of staring down Mooney.

1:33 - Again this is 100% Dalton. Kmet is wide open and if Dalton leads him it is probably a 15-20 yard gain on 4 and 4. So we get a FG or TD out of this drive. Instead, he throws to ARob who has 2 guys in his area and throws it a bit behind him. Again there is nothing wrong with this play call or decision to go for it. It is wide open if Dalton just makes the right read.

2:27 - This is laughable from Peters. If you freeze this, Peters is backpedaling without engaging anyone because he is unsure regarding whether he is supposed to help with Donald or block the outside man. As the RB releases, I have no fucking idea who Peters thinks is going to block the RE and in the end he is basically responsible for double pressure. He doesn't help on Donald who pushes back Whitehair and so Dalton can't step up and he doesn't block the RE until it is too late so he gets a hand on the pass. Again, this isn't really a playcall or coaching issue. Whitehair and Peters are the two most experienced lineman on the team. This is just fucking atrocious communication and execution.

Not shown - There was a 3 and 2 at Rams 47 at 7:29 of the 2nd quarter and Dalton throws on the money to ARob but there was clear PI where the defender hit him before the ball was there that the refs missed. So that is another opportunity missed that had nothing to do with Nagy.

7:21 - Again this has nothing to do with Nagy really. 2 vets fucking up again. Freeze the tape at this moment and Dalton is looking right at Monty and can easily throw the ball. This is first and 10 and you have been taking what the D gave you all night. The problem is he is 100% staring down Monty and the 3 defenders are all watching him. As Monty and ARob make no effort to block any of them and Dalton does a bit of a pump fake, I suspect this was actually supposed to be a deep shot to Mooney but Dalton takes to long to pull the trigger. Whitehair then gets completely mauled by Dalton and instead of a 2nd and 8 if he throws to Monty or a big play if he anticipates and throws over the top of the flat footed defenders, it is and 2nd and 25 instead.

At worst this is 15 points Dalton and the OL fucked up if you assume 5 FGs and at best it is 35 points as all of these fuck ups were in the Rams half of the Field. None of the above would have required some superhuman effort. All it would have required is Dalton and the OL to execute basic plays. So yes Nagy had his standard stupidity of going away from what is working and the gadget plays that go nowhere but he also put the team in position to score between 15 and 35 additional points if they had executed very simple plays.

So the issue for me wasn't Nagy's play calling. The issue was the argument for Dalton is he is suppose to make the plays above as he is supposed to be a vet that is decisive and throws with anticipation. He field miserably at that in key moments and it cost us 15-35 easy points. Fields may also have failed to see these plays but if the vet is not going to make these plays then no reason to play him.
The problem is Ryan Pace running a Ponzi scheme with Bear draft oicks
 

Visionman

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I wanted to see how Nagy did with “his” QB. Would he open up the offense more? The answer from last night seems to be NO. He is not a risk taker, and when the heat is on, will take the conservative less risky approach.

Desai? It was his first game as DC. If he can’t get the secondary playing 100% better soon, he’s just as much of a problem. Which is good in as way, as we won’t have to worry about losing a promising young DC if/when Nagy gets fired.
 

Chicagosports89

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I wanted to see how Nagy did with “his” QB. Would he open up the offense more? The answer from last night seems to be NO. He is not a risk taker, and when the heat is on, will take the conservative less risky approach.

Desai? It was his first game as DC. If he can’t get the secondary playing 100% better soon, he’s just as much of a problem. Which is good in as way, as we won’t have to worry about losing a promising young DC if/when Nagy gets fired.
How is Desai suppose to get a secondary playing better when it has no nfl talent?
 

puckthefackers

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did remy find the correct answer that Yes, Nagy is to blame? Not reading the vortex but amused someone would even question it. the national media is piling on, thought everyone knew Nagy is to blame after last night shitshow
 

remydat

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You're going hard on Roquan for one play.

When he's not even close to being an issue on the defense

I am stating facts. He fucked up that play. Whether he is a problem overall or generally is irrelevant as I am not analyzing his overall ability or contribution to the Bears. But that play was 100% his fault and had nothing to do with Desai. Being a good player doesn't mean you can't be blamed when you fuck up. He fucked up. He has flash plays but he does tend to have brain farts from time to time which is why he is not as well regarded as some of the other ILB that are more consistent.
 

run and shoot

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I think you have some pretty good takes on what happened in this game. However I will say this:

I think Matt is a good to great coach on Monday through Saturday.

I can tell because I have seen really good game plans from him before and could see what he was trying to do and usually with some degree of success or at least the opportunity for success depending on execution.

However, once he gets into a game, he makes questionable calls that kill drives and he has no sense of flow on how to call the offense.

Some of that is on players, yes. But better offensive coordinators know how to ride a hot hand when a player is popping off like Montgomery did last night, and instead he ran away from that on a number of occasions.

There is also a fundamental flaw with his offense as a designed concept. The Bears currently employ 33 different packages on offense. The NFL average is between 12 to 18. The shuttling of personnel constantly to and from the sideline is the reason why plays get in late and why we will see delay of games or stupid timeouts. The constant shuffling doesn't allow for the offense to find any sort of real rhythm or maintain it through a game.

I really don't know what type of offense Nagy is running
 

CHIBEAR

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I agree with everything you said, and those are great examples of mistakes that simply can't be made. But I refuse to absolve Nagy without knowing if it was Dalton not being willing/able to throw down the field or Nagy not being willing to push the ball down the field. I understand, the OL isn't good. I understand Jalen Ramsey is the best CB walking Earth right now. But Allen Robinson's route chart is unacceptable. Making a point to add Mooney, Goodwin, Byrd and Perriman (even though he was inactive) just to not use them to put pressure on the offense is inexcusable. Granted, IDK if that is the case because no all-22, but my fear is that this is the offense he thinks will work. Not even Fields can win with this style of offense against respectable teams.

Exactly a bend but dont break offense only works when you have a top 5 defense

Nagy is a one trick pony and Im not sure he has the experience as a coach or play caller to get the Bears out of this mess .

The Bears should be running two TE's and then they can dink and dunk all they want and manufacture deep shots with adequate protection for the qb .

Once you get to the opponents 40 which the Bears were able to do you can attack the entire field with the two TE look .

Arob and Mooney outside

Monty on runs

The TE'S down the seams

I honestly would've liked to see Foles (IKR WTF) if we cant get Fields because I would at least expect some no huddle ,some calling the play at the line . Nagy claimed guys have been in his system for a few years now but could anyone really tell that from watching this game and I don't Dalton has the familiarity with it to really even use that experience

This offense is seriously a hodge podge of hot ass messes with no identity considering you started a veteran and then called a game similar to one you call for a rookie
 

Cyphered

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I am stating facts. He fucked up that play. Whether he is a problem overall or generally is irrelevant as I am not analyzing his overall ability or contribution to the Bears. But that play was 100% his fault and had nothing to do with Desai. Being a good player doesn't mean you can't be blamed when you fuck up. He fucked up. He has flash plays but he does tend to have brain farts from time to time which is why he is not as well regarded as some of the other ILB that are more consistent.
I agree that players, even good ones, screw up and need to be called out/held accountable. But I fundamentally disagree about coaching. While playcalling is important, don't get me wrong, the number one, first, most basic role of a coach is... Being a freakin coach. As in, having your players prepared. The coach is responsible for limiting their players on field mishaps and screw ups. They can only do that by drilling the positional responsibilities within their system so deeply into their player's heads that each one responds the proper way each play not because of a thought, or recognizing a dang thing pre or post snap, but out of instinct and force of habit. It's the same freakin concept of military boot camps and every single martial arts training regiment. Drill it until it's instinct. Nagy's failure as a coach isn't play calling. That's fixable. It's much worse. He's just fundamentally a bad coach.
 

Hal9000

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I really don't know what type of offense Nagy is running

He is trying to emulate what Peterson did in Philly and what KC does - and really, it was a concept originally started by Mike Martz back in the day. It works like this:

You employ a MASSIVE playbook - just about every football play under the sun on offense. Then as an offensive coordinator, you wait to see how the defense lines up, which then dictates the selection of plays you choose from.

The idea is (and is technically correct), there is always an offensive play that can beat a particular defense every time regardless of talent, as long as it is executed perfectly. Because there is always a hole somewhere on defense, no matter how good, and thus you are continually taking what the defense gives you, all the way to the end zone.

And when it works, it works great.

WHEN it works.


When it doesn't work, because this is very much a ""reaction" offense rather than proactive, you get a lot of delay of games or bad time outs because it takes so long for the play to come in, or for players to come on and off the field due to the large amount of "packages" employed (Bears have 3x as many as most teams). And if it ISN'T executed correctly, the whole thing can break down REAL fast. The other flaw is that because the offensive coordinator is looking for holes in the defense, they aren't looking for WEAKNESSES. What I mean is players on the other side you can just pick on and abuse to march down the field. Very much a "can't see the forest but for the trees" approach.

I think why it works in KC isn't just because Mahommes is a special QB, but also because Reid took what I just said, and modified it to a hybrid system where you don't need as many packages, and where you CAN pick on an opponent's weak players. Nagy is running a more vanilla version - hence the common criticism that it looks like he is just running a collection of plays - because that's exactly what he IS doing...
 

Broc

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Oh, and the play Borom got his ding is the same one that got Long's leg.

How many players do we need to lose to injury before Nagy stops calling this garbage play?

Even worse they run it with ARob. 🤦‍♂️

It's literally the same story every year with this asshole.

All offseason to prepare for the Rams and this is what we get.

Pathetic.
 

run and shoot

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He is trying to emulate what Peterson did in Philly and what KC does - and really, it was a concept originally started by

back in the day. It works like this:

You employ a MASSIVE playbook - just about every football play under the sun on offense. Then as an offensive coordinator, you wait to see how the defense lines up, which then dictates the selection of plays you choose from.

The idea is (and is technically correct), there is always an offensive play that can beat a particular defense every time regardless of talent, as long as it is executed perfectly. Because there is always a hole somewhere on defense, no matter how good, and thus you are continually taking what the defense gives you, all the way to the end zone.

And when it works, it works great.

WHEN it works.


When it doesn't work, because this is very much a ""reaction" offense rather than proactive, you get a lot of delay of games or bad time outs because it takes so long for the play to come in, or for players to come on and off the field due to the large amount of "packages" employed (Bears have 3x as many as most teams). And if it ISN'T executed correctly, the whole thing can break down REAL fast. The other flaw is that because the offensive coordinator is looking for holes in the defense, they aren't looking for WEAKNESSES. What I mean is players on the other side you can just pick on and abuse to march down the field. Very much a "can't see the forest but for the trees" approach.

I think why it works in KC isn't just because Mahommes is a special QB, but also because Reid took what I just said, and modified it to a hybrid system where you don't need as many packages, and where you CAN pick on an opponent's weak players. Nagy is running a more vanilla version - hence the common criticism that it looks like he is just running a collection of plays - because that's exactly what he IS doing...


Nagy is running a more vanilla version - hence the common criticism that it looks like he is just running a collection of plays - because that's exactly what he IS doing...

Right....Nagy's offense looks very misguided.
Originally the Martz-Vermeil scheme was a fast-paced, quick-striking offense. Somewhat the same with Reid, who's roots are WCO. But none of this represents what Nagy is doing. Everything is slow developing and puts pressure on the OL and the Qb.
 

JoJoBoxer

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My conclusion in reviewing the tape is that Nagy is a problem but not in the way people are saying. Nagy's problem is his stupidity in going away from stuff that is working like Monty and the gimmick shit that kills momentum and drives. You can also say his problem is choosing Dalton over Fields. However, last night there was a lot of talk about the gameplan and playcalling that I thought sort of missed the point.


27 seconds - This is a mistake I expect from Fields not Dalton. Dalton stares down his WR and doesn't make sure the guy in a zone over Kmet follows him. This play call is actually 100%, it is Dalton that fucks this up. You have to throw off the defender that tips the ball. If he stays with Kmet then you throw to Mooney. If he lets Kmet go then you throw to Kmet. This is actually a TD and likely changes the whole dynamic of the game if Dalton makes the right play instead of staring down Mooney.

1:33 - Again this is 100% Dalton. Kmet is wide open and if Dalton leads him it is probably a 15-20 yard gain on 4 and 4. So we get a FG or TD out of this drive. Instead, he throws to ARob who has 2 guys in his area and throws it a bit behind him. Again there is nothing wrong with this play call or decision to go for it. It is wide open if Dalton just makes the right read.

2:27 - This is laughable from Peters. If you freeze this, Peters is backpedaling without engaging anyone because he is unsure regarding whether he is supposed to help with Donald or block the outside man. As the RB releases, I have no fucking idea who Peters thinks is going to block the RE and in the end he is basically responsible for double pressure. He doesn't help on Donald who pushes back Whitehair and so Dalton can't step up and he doesn't block the RE until it is too late so he gets a hand on the pass. Again, this isn't really a playcall or coaching issue. Whitehair and Peters are the two most experienced lineman on the team. This is just fucking atrocious communication and execution.

Not shown - There was a 3 and 2 at Rams 47 at 7:29 of the 2nd quarter and Dalton throws on the money to ARob but there was clear PI where the defender hit him before the ball was there that the refs missed. So that is another opportunity missed that had nothing to do with Nagy.

7:21 - Again this has nothing to do with Nagy really. 2 vets fucking up again. Freeze the tape at this moment and Dalton is looking right at Monty and can easily throw the ball. This is first and 10 and you have been taking what the D gave you all night. The problem is he is 100% staring down Monty and the 3 defenders are all watching him. As Monty and ARob make no effort to block any of them and Dalton does a bit of a pump fake, I suspect this was actually supposed to be a deep shot to Mooney but Dalton takes to long to pull the trigger. Whitehair then gets completely mauled by Dalton and instead of a 2nd and 8 if he throws to Monty or a big play if he anticipates and throws over the top of the flat footed defenders, it is and 2nd and 25 instead.

At worst this is 15 points Dalton and the OL fucked up if you assume 5 FGs and at best it is 35 points as all of these fuck ups were in the Rams half of the Field. None of the above would have required some superhuman effort. All it would have required is Dalton and the OL to execute basic plays. So yes Nagy had his standard stupidity of going away from what is working and the gadget plays that go nowhere but he also put the team in position to score between 15 and 35 additional points if they had executed very simple plays.

So the issue for me wasn't Nagy's play calling. The issue was the argument for Dalton is he is suppose to make the plays above as he is supposed to be a vet that is decisive and throws with anticipation. He field miserably at that in key moments and it cost us 15-35 easy points. Fields may also have failed to see these plays but if the vet is not going to make these plays then no reason to play him.
Dalton needs to stay on the field as a blocker. He mauled Donald on one play and then he mauled Whitehair also on another play.
 

Hal9000

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He is trying to emulate what Peterson did in Philly and what KC does - and really, it was a concept originally started by

back in the day. It works like this:

You employ a MASSIVE playbook - just about every football play under the sun on offense. Then as an offensive coordinator, you wait to see how the defense lines up, which then dictates the selection of plays you choose from.

The idea is (and is technically correct), there is always an offensive play that can beat a particular defense every time regardless of talent, as long as it is executed perfectly. Because there is always a hole somewhere on defense, no matter how good, and thus you are continually taking what the defense gives you, all the way to the end zone.

And when it works, it works great.

WHEN it works.


When it doesn't work, because this is very much a ""reaction" offense rather than proactive, you get a lot of delay of games or bad time outs because it takes so long for the play to come in, or for players to come on and off the field due to the large amount of "packages" employed (Bears have 3x as many as most teams). And if it ISN'T executed correctly, the whole thing can break down REAL fast. The other flaw is that because the offensive coordinator is looking for holes in the defense, they aren't looking for WEAKNESSES. What I mean is players on the other side you can just pick on and abuse to march down the field. Very much a "can't see the forest but for the trees" approach.

I think why it works in KC isn't just because Mahommes is a special QB, but also because Reid took what I just said, and modified it to a hybrid system where you don't need as many packages, and where you CAN pick on an opponent's weak players. Nagy is running a more vanilla version - hence the common criticism that it looks like he is just running a collection of plays - because that's exactly what he IS doing...




Right....Nagy's offense looks very misguided.
Originally the Martz-Vermeil scheme was a fast-paced, quick-striking offense. Somewhat the same with Reid, who's roots are WCO. But none of this represents what Nagy is doing. Everything is slow developing and puts pressure on the OL and the Qb.

You are talking plays though, and I am talking concept. And I would argue that you are wrong on Vermeil/Martz. There were a lot of 5-7 step drops in that playbook, to allow receivers time to get open and go for the home run every time.

That ALSO put a lot of stress on the O-Line.

Or do you not remember Cutler getting his head taken off routinely when Martz was here?
 

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