Bears vs Rams Review - Was Nagy and Desai the problem?

Visionman

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You are talking plays though, and I am talking concept. And I would argue that you are wrong on Vermeil/Martz. There were a lot of 5-7 step drops in that playbook, to allow receivers time to get open and go for the home run every time.

That ALSO put a lot of stress on the O-Line.

Or do you not remember Cutler getting his head taken off routinely when Martz was here?
Martz who didn’t believe in the TE position, and Nagy who can’t get enough of them.

Yep! The are from the same mold…lol
 

modo

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Rams had no fear of Nagy's game plan. Nagy refused to challenge the Rams at all and that is what lost the game.

The Bears were running on the Rams and Nagy barely touched the play action pass except for a couple plays.

The passing plays were all seemingly short of the first down marker. Nagy did not call enough plays to flood the zone when he should have.

It was the same Nagy offense we have seen since day one. And the Rams didn't care.

As for the defense, no tackling and poor safety coverage caused major issues....then later in the game Desai could not dial up a defense to stop their run....they ran at will and we only had one up LB who had to cover two holes....
 

Hal9000

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Martz who didn’t believe in the TE position, and Nagy who can’t get enough of them.

Yep! The are from the same mold…lol

If you have two soldiers working from the same battle plan, but one uses tanks and another uses infantry, does that mean the battle plan is different for each, or just that each have a different method of achieving it via the resources they choose to employ?
 

remydat

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I agree that players, even good ones, screw up and need to be called out/held accountable. But I fundamentally disagree about coaching. While playcalling is important, don't get me wrong, the number one, first, most basic role of a coach is... Being a freakin coach. As in, having your players prepared. The coach is responsible for limiting their players on field mishaps and screw ups. They can only do that by drilling the positional responsibilities within their system so deeply into their player's heads that each one responds the proper way each play not because of a thought, or recognizing a dang thing pre or post snap, but out of instinct and force of habit. It's the same freakin concept of military boot camps and every single martial arts training regiment. Drill it until it's instinct. Nagy's failure as a coach isn't play calling. That's fixable. It's much worse. He's just fundamentally a bad coach.

Sure this may be true in general but it has nothing to do with Quan's individual fuck up which is what that specific post was about. A coach cannot eliminate all mistakes and at the end of the day Quan is smart enough to know better.
 

remydat

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Rams had no fear of Nagy's game plan. Nagy refused to challenge the Rams at all and that is what lost the game.

The Bears were running on the Rams and Nagy barely touched the play action pass except for a couple plays.

The passing plays were all seemingly short of the first down marker. Nagy did not call enough plays to flood the zone when he should have.

It was the same Nagy offense we have seen since day one. And the Rams didn't care.

As for the defense, no tackling and poor safety coverage caused major issues....then later in the game Desai could not dial up a defense to stop their run....they ran at will and we only had one up LB who had to cover two holes....

Nagy's O threw deep a lot last year. Combined Trubisky and Foles threw deep 74 times last year which would have ranked 5th last year ahead of Mahomes and behind Brady, Ryan, Rodgers, and Big Ben. The problem was that they were god awful at it not that Nagy didn't call deep plays. Trubisky threw intermediate or deep routes 37% of the time last year and Foles 27% of the time. Dalton threw intermediate or deep routes around 5% of the time and that consisted of zero deep passes and a couple intermediate passes. So Trubisky and Foles threw deep or intermediate like 5-7 times more than Dalton.

Further, I don't ever recall Nagy ever orchestrating an offense against a good D last year that essentially made it deep in the opponent's half 7 times in a signal game. Please point me to another game against a good defense where that happened. The fact is the game plan worked in generating scoring opportunities at a rate we rarely saw last year. The issue again is Dalton made stupid fucking reads when it mattered and there were lapses on the OL.

As for Desai, I agree with the first part. Not sure the 2nd part was playcalling so much as the D gave up at the end there. I would have to see how the D performs over more games before I say it is playcalling and not the stupidity of the players.

And again, none of this means Nagy is a good coach or that he doesn't suck. It just means I think yall are allowing your bias to pretend like this was the same offense last year. It was not. We moved the ball quite a bit and we pretty much cut out the deeper routes that are a staple of a Nagy/Reid offense. That was largely a result of the opponent and I would put money on the fact that the game plan will incorporate deeper pass plays going forward and especially when Fields is in.
 
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Visionman

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If you have two soldiers working from the same battle plan, but one uses tanks and another uses infantry, does that mean the battle plan is different for each, or just that each have a different method of achieving it via the resources they choose to employ?
They both run/ran NFL offenses, yes. Every single team uses many of the same concepts. The only difference is how they use them, and how often.
 

modo

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Nagy's O threw deep a lot last year. Combined Trubisky and Foles threw deep 74 times last year which would have ranked 5th last year ahead of Mahomes and behind Brady, Ryan, Rodgers, and Big Ben. The problem was that they were god awful at it not that Nagy didn't call deep plays. Trubisky threw intermediate or deep routes 37% of the time last year and Foles 27% of the time. Dalton threw intermediate or deep routes around 5% of the time and that consisted of zero deep passes and a couple intermediate passes. So Trubisky and Foles threw deep or intermediate like 5-7 times more than Dalton.

Further, I don't ever recall Nagy ever orchestrating an offense against a good D last year that essentially made it deep in the opponent's half 7 times in a signal game. Please point me to another game against a good defense where that happened. The fact is the game plan worked in generating scoring opportunities at a rate we rarely saw last year. The issue again is Dalton made stupid fucking reads when it mattered and there were lapses on the OL.

As for Desai, I agree with the first part. Not sure the 2nd part was playcalling so much as the D gave up at the end there. I would have to see how the D performs over more games before I say it is playcalling and not the stupidity of the players.

And again, none of this means Nagy is a good coach or that he doesn't suck. It just means I think yall are allowing your bias to pretend like this was the same offense last year. It was not. We moved the ball quite a bit and we pretty much cut out the deeper routes that are a staple of a Nagy/Reid offense. That was largely a result of the opponent and I would put money on the fact that the game plan will incorporate deeper pass plays going forward and especially when Fields is in.
Are you suggesting that Nagy's O performed on Sunday...

Nagy gave away several missed opportunities of plays he could have called....

As I pointed out more play action and zone flooding would have helped...

I rewatched the coaches film and there might as well have been a wall at 8-9 yards because the Bears receivers would constantly stop and turn....few if any double moves.....it was not good.
 

remydat

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Are you suggesting that Nagy's O performed on Sunday...

Nagy gave away several missed opportunities of plays he could have called....

As I pointed out more play action and zone flooding would have helped...

I rewatched the coaches film and there might as well have been a wall at 8-9 yards because the Bears receivers would constantly stop and turn....few if any double moves.....it was not good.

Nagy's O did not perform on Sunday but that is largely because the QB and the OL failed to perform when given the chance on critical downs. If you disagree then rather than bitching in general terms go through each of the fuck ups I noted in the OP and try to show me where I am wrong.

1. Did Dalton stare down his WR in the End Zone and miss an open Kmet?

2. Did Dalton try to squeeze it in to ARob on 4th down and miss a wide open Kmet on a cross that would have picked up the first?

3. Did Peters forget who he was blocking and got stuck blocking no one until it was too late which led to a failure on 4th down?

4. Did the ref miss and obvious PI call that lead to a punt in Rams territory?

5. Did Fields wait a tad too long to pull the trigger allowing Donald to run over Whitehair on the way to a 15 yard sack?

You want to speak in generalities so you will continue to avoid addressing the above. I would be happy to discuss other aspects of the game once you actually man up and address the above from the OP. Did the above happen or not and if so did that cost us points?
 

SugarWalls

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If dalton is fucking up then why is he playing?

this is on Nagy. Nagy said he did lots well!
 

remydat

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If dalton is fucking up then why is he playing?

this is on Nagy. Nagy said he did lots well!

Yes I said in the OP that if you want to blame Nagy for Dalton being in their then that is fair game as Dalton made ridiculously stupid decisions when it counted.

If Dalton doesn't improve against the Bengals then he is probably looking at losing his starting job by the Lions game as I predicted. Although if he really sucks then I can see Fields coming in relief against the Bengals and starting against the Browns. My preference though would still be let him come on against the Browns in relief and start against the Lions.
 

run and shoot

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You are talking plays though, and I am talking concept. And I would argue that you are wrong on Vermeil/Martz. There were a lot of 5-7 step drops in that playbook, to allow receivers time to get open and go for the home run every time.

That ALSO put a lot of stress on the O-Line.

Or do you not remember Cutler getting his head taken off routinely when Martz was here?

The WCO is a fast-paced, quick-striking concept.
Cutler wasn't smart enuff to run Martz' offense. Kurt Warner was.
 

dentfan

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I’m not sure Nagy sucks at calling plays so much as his players suck at executing them. If Andy Friggin’ Dalton is making mistakes a rookie would make, play the rook.

I was ready to start an F U Nagy thread after watching this game, but I’m leaning towards not doing it in the context of Nagy being a bad play caller, but in terms of him being a shit coach who can’t get his players to execute.

The dumb fuck is doing two job, OC and HC, and not doing either well. So, fuck him, but not for my original reason.
 

Bearly

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I’m not sure Nagy sucks at calling plays so much as his players suck at executing them. If Andy Friggin’ Dalton is making mistakes a rookie would make, play the rook.

I was ready to start an F U Nagy thread after watching this game, but I’m leaning towards not doing it in the context of Nagy being a bad play caller, but in terms of him being a shit coach who can’t get his players to execute.

The dumb fuck is doing two job, OC and HC, and not doing either well. So, fuck him, but not for my original reason.
It's both. Can you imagine him explaining concepts with his word salad.
His playcalling salad is explained to players with word salad and the result is Nagy making chicken shit from chicken salad.

What we saw Sunday is Dalton running Nagy's O relatively efficiently outside the tipped ball. How'd that work? Fields would likely have done better by making plays and not taking the reads as designed. It's what they talked about in camp with Dalton not making errors but Fields having greater score success. Begs the question of whether we actually want Fields to make the right reads, LOL. This is currently pretty fucked up.
 
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NCChiFan

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Got to hand it to Gipson in his Presser. He owned up to the mistakes on D. Blamed himself 100% for the Kupp catch. Shared blame on the no touch td play. Really just tossed himself and a bit of Jackson under the bus. Said, they will be better.
 
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iueyedoc

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Why so much effort to define how Nagy sucks?

His plays designs are bad.

His plays designs are great, but he can't communicate them to any of his QB's.

His plays designs are great, he communicates them well to his QB's, but he is a bad in game play caller.

His plays designs are great, he communicates them well to his QB's, he is a fine in game play caller, but the players are not executing them well.

What does it matter? He is a bad HC, so bad that the national media is pointing it out. For the national guys to reach a consensus that you suck... you have too really suck. Chicken PaFrm's playF calling rivals Nagy's for ineptitude.
Fangio got him 12 wins, Pagano could merely get them to a couple of 8-8 seasons, Mr Vegan Chicken Parm is awful.
Nagy is about to be completely exposed as the fraud he has always been.
 

remydat

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It's both. Can you imagine him explaining concepts with his word salad.
His playcalling salad is explained to players with word salad and the result is Nagy making chicken shit from chicken salad.

What we saw Sunday is Dalton running Nagy's O relatively efficiently outside the tipped ball. How'd that work? Fields would likely have done better by making plays and not taking the reads as designed. It's what they talked about in camp with Dalton not making errors but Fields having greater score success. Begs the question of whether we actually want Fields to make the right reads, LOL. This is currently pretty fucked up.

Well he ran it efficiently until he got in the opponent half and then he fucked it up royally on 3 separate occassions that cost us anyehere from 13 to 21 points.

If he continues to make those dumb mistakes in the opponent half then Fields should start.
 
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remydat

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Why so much effort to define how Nagy sucks?

His plays designs are bad.

His plays designs are great, but he can't communicate them to any of his QB's.

His plays designs are great, he communicates them well to his QB's, but he is a bad in game play caller.

His plays designs are great, he communicates them well to his QB's, he is a fine in game play caller, but the players are not executing them well.

What does it matter? He is a bad HC, so bad that the national media is pointing it out. For the national guys to reach a consensus that you suck... you have too really suck. Chicken PaFrm's playF calling rivals Nagy's for ineptitude.
Fangio got him 12 wins, Pagano could merely get them to a couple of 8-8 seasons, Mr Vegan Chicken Parm is awful.
Nagy is about to be completely exposed as the fraud he has always been.

Well because you can't fix something if you don't know specifically what the issue is. No one is disputing Nagy is a bad coach as I have been saying that since 2018 when most were masturbating over his gimmicks.

The biggest issue right now is Dalton is not giving us what Nagy claimed he should. If Dalton made the decisions Nagy claimed he was capable of, we probably put up 27-35 points. He clearly missed a pass to Kmet that would have been a TD on the Int. That get us to 21 points. He also clearly missed Kmet on a crosser that puts us in FG range and then turned a 1st and 10 in FG range to 2nd and 25 by not pulling the trigger when he could have. So that was 6-14 more points.

I really dont think any of the above is disputable so the point is the gameplan and playcalling should have had us scoring 27-35 points. Nagy's failure thus appears to be mainly the choice of Dalton not the playcalling. Could he have thrown deep more? Yes. Does that change the fact that what he called should have yielded more points if Dalton wasnt a bozo? No.
 

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