Duncan Keith traded to Edmonton

HSBOB

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Agree to disagree.

A true #1 Dman >>>>>>>>> A talented but undersized sniper/finisher.

P.S. - Having El Gato kill penalties is not a testament to his prowess, it's a damning representation of the current bottom-dwellers knows as the Blackhawks.
Disagree
How has D-Cat's size adversely affected his performance? He can take a check and he hasn't missed a single game to injury so far in his career.
Are you saying you didn't see a massive improvement in the 23yro's all around game at the same time his offense improved? His linemates were barely NHL quality and he was still 3rd in goal scoring.

P.S. The team has guys like Kampf,Carpenter,Hagel ect....ect,to kill penalties,D-Cat did it because he's better than those guys and he's a dangerous short handed goal scorer.

I just don't what more this kid has to do to gain respect........would you rather part with D-Cat instead of Dach?

Of course the team needs top four D-men but we saw a few real good defensive teams go down in the PO's because they didn't have top end offensive talent too. There is absolutely NO ONE in the Hawk's system with any chance of producing the offense D-Cat produces and top line winger are real expensive on the open market too.
 

HSBOB

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For a long term true number 1 D, I would trade anyone but Kane right now. Because you'll need Kane to train the replacement, like he did with breadman, el gato, and whoever is next.
Where do you get another 40 goal score from? Panarin makes 11.5M per and he's still never potted more than 32.
 
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HSBOB

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Agreed, even tho moving El Gato creates a hole, we don't have a single top-4 Dman. We don't even have a very good #5/#6. A sniper wing is a luxury, but competent Dmen are an essential building block.
The Habs and Isle both had very good top four D-men,a goal scorer woulda came in handy when the Isle lost a game seven 1-0.
 

RacerX

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Disagree
How has D-Cat's size adversely affected his performance? He can take a check and he hasn't missed a single game to injury so far in his career.
Are you saying you didn't see a massive improvement in the 23yro's all around game at the same time his offense improved? His linemates were barely NHL quality and he was still 3rd in goal scoring.

P.S. The team has guys like Kampf,Carpenter,Hagel ect....ect,to kill penalties,D-Cat did it because he's better than those guys and he's a dangerous short handed goal scorer.

I just don't what more this kid has to do to gain respect........would you rather part with D-Cat instead of Dach?

Of course the team needs top four D-men but we saw a few real good defensive teams go down in the PO's because they didn't have top end offensive talent too. There is absolutely NO ONE in the Hawk's system with any chance of producing the offense D-Cat produces and top line winger are real expensive on the open market too.

Calm down, and understand I am not criticizing your boi, he is a very good winger. Period.

This is not even about El Gato, it is about the realization that we need a massive overhaul and rebuild and at best are at least a couple years away from contending.

The rebuild has to start with D, and knocking down a long-term #1 Dman is the first step. Everyone on the entire fucking team can ship out for all I care, as long as we begin accumulating the essential building blocks.

Seth Jones can be that guy, we can start with him.
 

RacerX

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The Habs and Isle both had very good top four D-men,a goal scorer woulda came in handy when the Isle lost a game seven 1-0.

Nonsensical post, they only got as far as they did because of those Dmen.
 

HSBOB

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Calm down, and understand I am not criticizing your boi, he is a very good winger. Period.

This is not even about El Gato, it is about the realization that we need a massive overhaul and rebuild and at best are at least a couple years away from contending.

The rebuild has to start with D, and knocking down a long-term #1 Dman is the first step. Everyone on the entire fucking team can ship out for all I care, as long as we begin accumulating the essential building blocks.

Seth Jones can be that guy, we can start with him.
My boi? What the fuck does that mean? Forty goal scores are every bit as hard to find as a number one D-man....period and every bit as expensive.

A rebuild shouldn't include a 23yro 40 goal scorer?
 

HSBOB

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Nonsensical post, they only got as far as they did because of those Dmen.
Nowhere near as nonsensical as trading away a generational scorer! You can minimize all around play and penalty killing all you want but few leading scorers are able to PK.
The Isle lost a game seven 1-0 with their top scorer out of the lineup.......can't win if you don't score my friend.

Would you trade D-Cat before Dach?
 

greg23

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Love Jones but wouldn't move debrincat for him esp with 1 year left on a contract.

Outside of Kane and the cat, the goal scoring ability is questionable.

I'd move dach before I move the cat
 

RacerX

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My boi? What the fuck does that mean? Forty goal scores are every bit as hard to find as a number one D-man....period and every bit as expensive.

A rebuild shouldn't include a 23yro 40 goal scorer?

I characterized him as your boi because you keep inventing things I did not say or think about D-Cat in order to continue to underscore and inflate his value.

I like El Gato, he is an excellent winger and his contract holds good value, but he is not the franchise player you make him out to be.
 

RacerX

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Nowhere near as nonsensical as trading away a generational scorer! You can minimize all around play and penalty killing all you want but few leading scorers are able to PK.
The Isle lost a game seven 1-0 with their top scorer out of the lineup.......can't win if you don't score my friend.

Would you trade D-Cat before Dach?
You already swung and missed once with the 1-0 Isles reference, sorry to say it is unpersuasive and irrelevant to this topic.

For the Blackhawks franchise, given their current roster, contracts, and prospects, Seth Jones is far more valuable than D-Cat. Period.
 

MassHavoc

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Where do you get another 40 goal score from? Panarin makes 11.5M per and he's still never potted more than 32.
He didn't make 11.5 while he was here. I'm not saying I want Big Cat gone, i love him. I'm just saying if that's what it takes to finally get some stability on the offense then fine. Do it now while Kane can still carry a line and find his replacement. You know what those 40 goals got the hawks in 2018-2019... 9th in scored... 2nd in goals against per game. Obviously, that's not all on him. But the defense has been a big problem for a while now. They relied too heavily on Keith and Seabs to just always be there, and even when they were they weren't themselves. They have been in the top 2 of shots against per game in for the last 3 years. And in the top 10 for the last 7 years.
 

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I still dont know what El Gato even is.

Is he better than Taylor Hall? How many goals would Debrincat score if he were the one in Buffalo last season?
 

JimAKABlkhwks918

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No, it's not. A fleecing is when you trade a shit player (which Keith isn't) for a stud (which Jones isn't). What you described is a salary dump.

It's too early to say either way. Everything hinges on whether or not Keith plays well next year.
The Sharp trade is a fleecing; the Keith trade is not even close to that.
 

Granada

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It's a tough call between Cat and Jones. Ideally, you keep both. Debrincat had as good of a year as you could ask for, but the year or so before, not so much. That said, I really like this kid. He plays bigger than his size and -- scoring wise -- he'll be Kane's replacement if he can keep this pace up. So do you trade him for Keith's replacement? It just opens up another huge hole, except now it's in your top-six forward core.

Either way, I don't think I'm doing that trade if I'm Bowman if the asking price is Dach/Debrincat, Mitchell, and a pick (1st, was it?). That is fucking hefty, even if it is one or the other of Dach/Debrincat. I might do Boqvist, Mitchell, and a 1st. Losing the 1st would be tough for the Hawks but that would get the job done; you might even be able to get him for just Boqvist, a 1st, and a B prospect.

Dach, Debrincat, and Hagel are the three players they'd really want. Out of the three, who is the most expendable, right now? I'm almost tempted to say Dach.
 
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I tend to agree. He reminds me of a shorter version of Steve Larmer. I've seen very few Hawk players that are great at one-timers....Larmer was the best and Panarin was a close second. You can put D-Cat in that picture, too.

Plus opening a hole to fill another is counter productive.
Exactly.

I wouldn't trade El Gato for Jones...Jones is good but if you're going to rob Peter to pay Paul you better make sure you're robbing Peter blind.

Defense has been an issue for a long time now, I won't argue that. But if you're looking for D-help by sending away a 40 goal scorer, then you can't just be looking for a top-32 D-man. You better be going for top-10 if not top-5. I don't think Seth jones is quite there yet. You're talking prime Keith, prime Doughty, Hedman, etc. Plus couple that with the fact that Jones is looking for a payday after this season as a UFA and Debrincat's an RFA after 2 seasons.

Further, the 'hawks netminders are somewhat unproven. Lankienen shows promise even though his numbers are less than Crawford's at the same point in their respective careers, and I don't believe all of that can be attributed to a shitty defense in front of him. Some maybe, but not all of that. Subban looks like a career backup at best. it's going to take more than 1 D-man to shore up the make end enough to mitigate Debrincat's scoring touch.
 

LordKOTL

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It's a tough call between Cat and Jones. Ideally, you keep both. Debrincat had as good of a year as you could ask for, but the year or so before, not so much. That said, I really like this kid. He plays bigger than his size and -- scoring wise -- he'll be Kane's replacement if he can keep this pace up. So do you trade him for Keith's replacement? It just opens up another huge hole, except now it's in your top-six forward core.

Either way, I don't think I'm doing that trade if I'm Bowman if the asking price is Dach/Debrincat, Mitchell, and a pick (1st, was it?). That is fucking hefty, even if it is one or the other of Dach/Debrincat. I might do Boqvist, Mitchell, and a 1st. Losing the 1st would be tough for the Hawks but that would get the job done; you might even be able to get him for just Boqvist, a 1st, and a B prospect.

Dach, Debrincat, and Hagel are the three players they'd really want. Out of the three, who is the most expendable, right now? I'm almost tempted to say Dach.
I'm inclined to agree. On paper it would be Hagel simply because of the talent drop-off, in spite of him having the kind of tenacity the 'hawks need. But going to the tale of the tape™:

Dach is 82 games in:

At the same point in Toews' career he was 53.8% at the dot, had 26 goals and 86 points, was a +15 and had ~19 mins/game.

Dach, meanwhile, is 36.8% at the dot, has 10 goals, 33 points, is a -4 and sees ~15 mins/game.

Toews is Toews, don't get me wrong here. However, Dach was all but slated to be the eventual Toews replacement. His numbers are barely on par with Dave Bolland's...except without the D-prowess so far. Also his injury history is questionable.

I'd like to see a healthy-for-once Dach and also see what he looks like on the wing if he doesn't start winning at the dot, but he's looking less of a Toews #3 pick and more of a Cam Barker #3 pick.
 

HSBOB

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You already swung and missed once with the 1-0 Isles reference, sorry to say it is unpersuasive and irrelevant to this topic.

For the Blackhawks franchise, given their current roster, contracts, and prospects, Seth Jones is far more valuable than D-Cat. Period.
One of the best defensive teams in the league lost 1-0 to the defending champs without their best offensive player......how is pointing that out swinging and missing? It's almost impossible to win a cup without elite offensive forwards.

You said I inflated his stats.....really.....


IMO,you're under-valuing the 23yro sniper. The kid got put on a 3rd/checking line for some insane reason last year following a 41 goal campaign but he never lost his smile or his pure love of the game. He put his head down and produced at a FIFTY goal pace while back-checking better than any other forward and he had a team best +/- to prove it. You also dismissed his ability to kill penalties(how many top goal scorers do that?)

We can debate the value of a 40 goal scorer vs a true #1 D-man and both are necessary pieces but "Jones is far more valuable than D-Cat. Period" is just your opinion and that's cool.

No bigger fan of the great Patrick Kane than this guy but Kane has never shown the defensive prowess D-Cat did last year my friend.

Replacing Alex DeBrincat is just as difficult and expensive as finding a #1 D-man.....JMO.....like yours.
 

HSBOB

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It's a tough call between Cat and Jones. Ideally, you keep both. Debrincat had as good of a year as you could ask for, but the year or so before, not so much. That said, I really like this kid. He plays bigger than his size and -- scoring wise -- he'll be Kane's replacement if he can keep this pace up. So do you trade him for Keith's replacement? It just opens up another huge hole, except now it's in your top-six forward core.

Either way, I don't think I'm doing that trade if I'm Bowman if the asking price is Dach/Debrincat, Mitchell, and a pick (1st, was it?). That is fucking hefty, even if it is one or the other of Dach/Debrincat. I might do Boqvist, Mitchell, and a 1st. Losing the 1st would be tough for the Hawks but that would get the job done; you might even be able to get him for just Boqvist, a 1st, and a B prospect.

Dach, Debrincat, and Hagel are the three players they'd really want. Out of the three, who is the most expendable, right now? I'm almost tempted to say Dach.
I'd love Seth Jones too but why not wait a year(where the fuck are we goin' next year anyway?)and sign him as a UFA instead of giving up assets.....especially a generational scorer.

Why on earth would a rebuilding team give up a budding 23yro superstar or any top prospects instead of waiting a year?
 

RacerX

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One of the best defensive teams in the league lost 1-0 to the defending champs without their best offensive player......how is pointing that out swinging and missing? It's almost impossible to win a cup without elite offensive forwards.

You said I inflated his stats.....really.....


IMO,you're under-valuing the 23yro sniper. The kid got put on a 3rd/checking line for some insane reason last year following a 41 goal campaign but he never lost his smile or his pure love of the game. He put his head down and produced at a FIFTY goal pace while back-checking better than any other forward and he had a team best +/- to prove it. You also dismissed his ability to kill penalties(how many top goal scorers do that?)

We can debate the value of a 40 goal scorer vs a true #1 D-man and both are necessary pieces but "Jones is far more valuable than D-Cat. Period" is just your opinion and that's cool.

No bigger fan of the great Patrick Kane than this guy but Kane has never shown the defensive prowess D-Cat did last year my friend.

Replacing Alex DeBrincat is just as difficult and expensive as finding a #1 D-man.....JMO.....like yours.

This is the 3rd time you referenced the Isles anecdote, as if that one isolated game is meaningful in any respect.

And this is the 3rd time you invented things I said or think, you keep creating strawmen apparently in an attempt to bolster your position.

This is just silly. You win.
 

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